Why not a 10w20 or 15w30?

[BigJohn]

We all know that super wide spans like 5w50 are super vulnerable to shearing out of grade super fast. The modifiers just can't keep the oil in grade for very long.

So with most of America in winter temps above 0 degrees... why not a 10w20 and 15w30, that would have much more longevity?

If I could buy a 15w30 with an HTHS above 3.5 and TBN above 10.... I would buy that stuff til the cows come home. Heck, that is more a 20k oil than anything produced today.

Thoughts?


.....

 

[facility1]

why not run Royal Purple pcmo 5w-30,,hths is 3.1 or Valvoline ep 5w-30 has hths at 3.2. which in most cases is more than adequate.

 

[SR5]

I agree with you BigJohn, but that is not enough for a market share.

Back in 2018 Delo brought out a 15W30, but it only lasted a few years. Not enough customers.

Too many people mistakenly going on about “startup flow”, not a factory recommend grade, with all the factories chasing fuel economy grades.

 

[The Critic]

High Performance Lubricants makes a few flavors of 10W20.

 

[TomYoung]

Just because wide spans are subject to shear, does not mean that close numbers keep giving you increased resistance to shear. The fact of the matter is that the hypothetical grades you ask about would offer no additional utility to what is already available.

 

[eljefino]

They could market it as a straight 20 grade whilst also meeting the requirements of 10w. Then you'd get people happy that "it isn't multi-vis at all."

Also since there aren't vehicles that call for it, you'd only get oil nerds buying it.

 

[Patman]

There are enough shear stable and high HTHS 5w30s out there that make the need for a 15w30 a moot point

 

[Hohn]

High Performance Lubricants makes a few flavors of 10W20.

Indeed. And in another thread it was mentioned that the straight SAE30 PCMO would test as a 15w30 being just a bit too thick to make 10w30.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

We all know that super wide spans like 5w50 are super vulnerable to shearing out of grade super fast. The modifiers just can't keep the oil in grade for very long.

So with most of America in winter temps above 0 degrees... why not a 10w20 and 15w30, that would have much more longevity?

If I could buy a 15w30 with an HTHS above 3.5 and TBN above 10.... I would buy that stuff til the cows come home. Heck, that is more a 20k oil than anything produced today.

Thoughts?


.....

Faulty premise leads to faulty conclusions.

 

[Hohn]

We all know that super wide spans like 5w50 are super vulnerable to shearing out of grade super fast. The modifiers just can't keep the oil in grade for very long.

So with most of America in winter temps above 0 degrees... why not a 10w20 and 15w30, that would have much more longevity?

If I could buy a 15w30 with an HTHS above 3.5 and TBN above 10.... I would buy that stuff til the cows come home. Heck, that is more a 20k oil than anything produced today.

Thoughts?


.....

My main thought is that if you are willing to live with a 15w, why not just get the HPL PCMO 15w40?

Shearing out of grade is not really a problem with HPL oils even in the PCMO line, and with the 40 grade you have the margin to give anyway.


HTHS is stout at 4.2, it has a TBN >13.5, excellent (low) volatility, and good (higher) density. And despite the 15w rating, it has a pour point of -40° F/C (the scales are the same at that temp).


If you are inclined towards thicker oils and don't get subzero winters, it seems to me the 15w40 PCMO is a gem of an oil that's getting overlooked because people assume the viscosity is a diesel oil.

And if you really don't mind a bit more cold thickness, I'd be seriously considering that SAE40 HPL PCMO. That is one crazy stout oil without having to step all the way up to a 20w50.

 

[RDY4WAR]

We all know that super wide spans like 5w50 are super vulnerable to shearing out of grade super fast. The modifiers just can't keep the oil in grade for very long.

So with most of America in winter temps above 0 degrees... why not a 10w20 and 15w30, that would have much more longevity?

If I could buy a 15w30 with an HTHS above 3.5 and TBN above 10.... I would buy that stuff til the cows come home. Heck, that is more a 20k oil than anything produced today.

Thoughts?


.....

High Performance Lubricants makes a PCMO 10W-20 and Euro 10W-20, both no VII. Their PCMO SAE 30 (also no VII) just missed the limit for a 10W-xx making it a 15W-30. The PCMO 10W-20 has a Noack of 3.8% with no shear. They also make a no VII 5W-20, 5W-30, and 10W-40. Note though, the performance of these oils is more a testament to HPL's standards than it is to those grades.

If 10W-20 and 15W-30 oils were made by a major brand looking to sell on the store shelves, it would likely be an underwhelming oil much like most 10W-30 and 15W-40 oils are currently. Narrow spread multi-grades can be made with lower quality (more volatile and oxidation prone) base oils along with more shear prone (35-50 SSI) VII, making the production dirt cheap while still meeting API's weak standards. Since the major brands are all in a race to the bottom with profit margins taking center stage, they gladly accept the lower production cost. What you'd likely get is a 10W-20 with 12-13% Noack, poor results in RPVOT and PDSC, and shearing more than most 5W-20 counterparts.

Let's take Rotella T6 15W-40 and Mobil 1 FS 0W-40 as examples. One of them has 12% Noack, far exceeds API limits on foam, and nearly shears slam out of grade in KRL. The other one is Mobil 1 FS 0W-40.

 

[Sam_Julier]

We all know that super wide spans like 5w50 are super vulnerable to shearing out of grade super fast. The modifiers just can't keep the oil in grade for very long.

So with most of America in winter temps above 0 degrees... why not a 10w20 and 15w30, that would have much more longevity?

If I could buy a 15w30 with an HTHS above 3.5 and TBN above 10.... I would buy that stuff til the cows come home. Heck, that is more a 20k oil than anything produced today.

Thoughts?


.....

HPL No VII Euro 10W30 has a 3.652 HTHS. Plus other specs that far exceed most oils.

Problem solved.

 

[kschachn]

HPL No VII Euro 10W30 has a 3.652 HTHS. Plus other specs that far exceed most oils.

Problem solved.

If there is even a problem in the first place. The Shear Monster gets a bad rap but we've seen only a small minority of engines that actually create enough mechanical shear to affect the VM in a good oil. The vast majority of viscosity thinning on here is due to fuel dilution.

But yes, an oil without VM will not be prone to shear in any engine.

 

[4WD]

If there is even a problem in the first place. The Shear Monster gets a bad rap but we've seen only a small minority of engines that actually create enough mechanical shear to affect the VM in a good oil. The vast majority of viscosity thinning on here is due to fuel dilution.

But yes, an oil without VM will not be prone to shear in any engine.

And the number of port injection engines is also thinning …

 

[RDY4WAR]

If there is even a problem in the first place. The Shear Monster gets a bad rap but we've seen only a small minority of engines that actually create enough mechanical shear to affect the VM in a good oil. The vast majority of viscosity thinning on here is due to fuel dilution.

But yes, an oil without VM will not be prone to shear in any engine.

Eh... not so much when oxidative thickening is accounted for. If a common 5W-30 started with a KV100 of 10.2 cSt and shows fairly close at 10.0-10.2 cSt at 7,500 miles with <1% fuel dilution, chances are that it actually sheared down into the mid or low 9s, possibly out of grade or close to it, before oxidative thickening brought it back up close to the virgin viscosity. I've seen quite a few UOAs here where such samples are celebrated as not shearing when it did in fact shear and likely quite a bit. If the oil isn't thickening with UOAs (fuel dilution excluded), it's shearing.

 

[4WD]

Some just pour a good 5W30 in the common 0W20 mills …
I use EC30 as a spike fluid (fumoto) for my lone DI on 0W20 …

 

[kschachn]

Eh... not so much when oxidative thickening is accounted for. If a common 5W-30 started with a KV100 of 10.2 cSt and shows fairly close at 10.0-10.2 cSt at 7,500 miles with <1% fuel dilution, chances are that it actually sheared down into the mid or low 9s, possibly out of grade or close to it, before oxidative thickening brought it back up close to the virgin viscosity. I've seen quite a few UOAs here where such samples are celebrated as not shearing when it did in fact shear and likely quite a bit. If the oil isn't thickening with UOAs (fuel dilution excluded), it's shearing.

Okay but on here the large majority of UOA are from Blackstone and there’s zero way to determine if an observed viscosity deviation is due to fuel dilution or some other process. Plus they have issues measuring viscosity as well, so I’m not sure I trust any observation in that regard.

I will stand by my assertion that most engines do not have a problem with shearing the VM. A few designs do but not most. But it’s also highly dependent on the quality of the VII being used.

Lots of people on here look at a random UOA and start claiming the “oil sheared” when in fact there’s no real evidence that happened.

 

[Hohn]

High Performance Lubricants makes a PCMO 10W-20 and Euro 10W-20, both no VII. Their PCMO SAE 30 (also no VII) just missed the limit for a 10W-xx making it a 15W-30. The PCMO 10W-20 has a Noack of 3.8% with no shear. They also make a no VII 5W-20, 5W-30, and 10W-40. Note though, the performance of these oils is more a testament to HPL's standards than it is to those grades.

If 10W-20 and 15W-30 oils were made by a major brand looking to sell on the store shelves, it would likely be an underwhelming oil much like most 10W-30 and 15W-40 oils are currently. Narrow spread multi-grades can be made with lower quality (more volatile and oxidation prone) base oils along with more shear prone (35-50 SSI) VII, making the production dirt cheap while still meeting API's weak standards. Since the major brands are all in a race to the bottom with profit margins taking center stage, they gladly accept the lower production cost. What you'd likely get is a 10W-20 with 12-13% Noack, poor results in RPVOT and PDSC, and shearing more than most 5W-20 counterparts.

Let's take Rotella T6 15W-40 and Mobil 1 FS 0W-40 as examples. One of them has 12% Noack, far exceeds API limits on foam, and nearly shears slam out of grade in KRL. The other one is Mobil 1 FS 0W-40.

This is a post that some of us old heads need to read and re-read multiple times, because the old school idea that "closer numbers better" is not just obsolete, but if often the OPPOSITE of what is true.

I struggle to grasp this myself. The idea that a 0w30 can be a better 30 grade than a 10w30 seems logically impossible "because muh VII content."

The flaw is assuming both oils are starting with identical base qualities and that VII is the difference between them. There are notable cases where the wider spread combined with stringent OEM approvals *requires* the use of superior bases (ESP 0w30 comes to mind) and the wider spread is just a categorically superior oil within the same 30 or 40 grade.

And the flip side is that someone like HPL can whip up a close-spread oil that is truly special because they are using the superior bases already and the closer spread truly does mean less VII.

 

[930.engineering]

We all know that super wide spans like 5w50 are super vulnerable to shearing out of grade super fast. The modifiers just can't keep the oil in grade for very long.

Or some 5W-50 maybe. But is 5W-50 actually an option to you? Many if not most
5W-30 are much more stable if not stout, probably since the span is much smaller,
perhaps as many 5W-30 must meet approvals, while common 5W-50 don't need to.

If I could buy a 15w30 with an HTHS above 3.5 and TBN above 10.... I would buy that stuff til the cows come home. Heck, that is more a 20k oil than anything produced today. Thoughts?

Lots of 5W-30 with 3.5 mPas and above available. Redline, Ravenol (REP & VMP).
I'd just suggest an Euro approved 5W-30 (VW 504 00, MB 229.51/52, BMW LL-01
/04, Porsche C30): problem solved.

You apparently are trying to solve a nonexistent problem.
,

 

[kschachn]

This is a post that some of us old heads need to read and re-read multiple times, because the old school idea that "closer numbers better" is not just obsolete, but if often the OPPOSITE of what is true.

I struggle to grasp this myself. The idea that a 0w30 can be a better 30 grade than a 10w30 seems logically impossible "because muh VII content."

The flaw is assuming both oils are starting with identical base qualities and that VII is the difference between them. There are notable cases where the wider spread combined with stringent OEM approvals *requires* the use of superior bases (ESP 0w30 comes to mind) and the wider spread is just a categorically superior oil within the same 30 or 40 grade.

And the flip side is that someone like HPL can whip up a close-spread oil that is truly special because they are using the superior bases already and the closer spread truly does mean less VII.

Plus the fact that not all VM are the same quality nor do they equally resist mechanical cleaving.