CK-4 E9 substitute LL 04 in BMW N47 SEQ Oz

[SR5]

Motul has a very good reputation, but it's hard to find in Australia. When you do it's about $20 per litre ($13.40 USD per 0.9 quart), and it's never on sale. A HDEO will be about half that regular price, and even less when on sale, say $5 to $10 per litre.

I agree that a regular PCMO 10W40 can shear down quickly, however HDEOs are made to resist shear. Hence the popularity of HDEOs like Rotella (Rimula here) in shared sump motorcycles, which are shear monsters due to the engine oil also being used in the gear box.

 

[LordNilesStandish]

@LordNilesStandish I will be interested to hear how things go for you. Yes as Edy correctly points out, it's not an approved BMW oil, but it's the sort of thing that I would try on my own car, especially once it was 12 years old. I'm happy to try a few things outside the box and live with the consequences of my decision. To be honest I think that a lot of mechanics often put the closest oil they have in, even if not strictly correct or formally approved, and the customer never knows. Regular oil changes are probably more important than anything.

Looking at Nulon Apex+ 10W40 Heavy Duty (E8, E11, CK-4), there is not much info out there, but as of a few years ago, the German company Fuchs purchased the Australian company Nulon. It's Fuchs that also make the Isuzu branded oil I was referring to above. Very good chance that it is the same stuff, just in a different package.

The only real risk I think is the DPF clogging but I think I'll be fine. It meets several tight DPF friendly specs.

The Mitsu dealer service department just use valvoline professional 10W40 in everything, and they are a dealer for about 5 different car makes. Most service departments I've peeked into just have a couple 205 L drums of oil laying around.

Interesting about the Nulon Fuches connection, I did not know that but when I read the specs for the Fuchs product you supplied I did think it was very similar. Yep probably the same product.

 

[LordNilesStandish]

Do you guys have Motul X-Clean 5W40 GEN2? It is LL04 oil, but it has very high HTHS of 3.9cP.
10W40 oils can be very shear stable if made out of good base stocks. Most are not. But, take for example Motul 10W40 300V and Motul 0W40 300V. 300V is probably most popular racing oil out there. 300V is exceptional stuff. In this case 10W40 will be more shear stable than 0W40. That is bcs. less VI in 10W40. However, most regular 10W40 oils are not made out of such sophisticated base stocks. So I would bet that Castrol Edge 0W40 is more shear stable than most 10W40’s on the market. I used Castrol 0W40 on the track in my BMW and sheared very little. However, I change my oil every 5,000mls or 7,500km.

The castrol edge 0W40 was a real find from BITOG.
It and the 10W60 have the same bland lable and just sit on the shelf next to the regular Edge 5W30 etc. Absolutely no way to tell apart.
On sale price is reasonable too.

 

[Bjornviken]

any day LL04 over a HDEO in a Bmw diesel engine. Bmw diesel engine are far more complex than a truck engine.

 

[LordNilesStandish]

The pri

Motul has a very good reputation, but it's hard to find in Australia. When you do it's about $20 per litre ($13.40 USD per 0.9 quart), and it's never on sale. A HDEO will be about half that regular price, and even less when on sale, say $5 to $10 per litre.

I agree that a regular PCMO 10W40 can shear down quickly, however HDEOs are made to resist shear. Hence the popularity of HDEOs like Rotella (Rimula here) in shared sump motorcycles, which are shear monsters due to the engine oil also being used in the gear box.

The price difference between, let's say 'consumer' and HDEO here is a real eye opener.

 

[LordNilesStandish]

any day LL04 over a HDEO in a Bmw diesel engine. Bmw diesel engine are far more complex than a truck engine.

I have 2 turbo diesel work ute's aka mini trucks. A Mitsubishi 2.4 L and a Ford 3.2 L.
The BMW runs a bit smoother but the engines are practically the same otherwise.
Per above post dealer just turfs generic valvoline into the Ute's.
Agree the BMW is a better, more refined engine but the other two are just as advanced.

 

[SR5]

The Mitsu dealer service department just use valvoline professional 10W40 in everything, and they are a dealer for about 5 different car makes. Most service departments I've peeked into just have a couple 205 L drums of oil laying around.

Yes, same here. The local garage and workshops around me only have about three oils. A 5W30 C3 synthetic, a 15W40 HDEO of some sort, and a 10W40 semi-synthetic.

The 10W40 goes into most things, I looked it up and it's API SP, API SN/CF, ACEA A3/B4. That's their default oil.

 

[edyvw]

I have 2 turbo diesel work ute's aka mini trucks. A Mitsubishi 2.4 L and a Ford 3.2 L.
The BMW runs a bit smoother but the engines are practically the same otherwise.
Per above post dealer just turfs generic valvoline into the Ute's.
Agree the BMW is a better, more refined engine but the other two are just as advanced.

Does the BMW engine have Mitsubishi or Ford logo on it? Or does the Mitsubishi engine have the BMW or Ford logo on it?
If not, then they are not the same!

 

[LordNilesStandish]

Yes, same here. The local garage and workshops around me only have about three oils. A 5W30 C3 synthetic, a 15W40 HDEO of some sort, and a 10W40 semi-synthetic.

The 10W40 goes into most things, I looked it up and it's API SP, API SN/CF, ACEA A3/B4. That's their default oil.

Makes sense from a business perspective, cant send the apprentice down to repco to buy a different oil for each vehicle.
It's entirely plausible the vehicle in question never/infrequently received LL04, it did come from Darwin after all.
Local Indy charged for LL04 last service but again, there is only two certified options on the market here, both relatively expensive. But these guys

Does the BMW engine have Mitsubishi or Ford logo on it? Or does the Mitsubishi engine have the BMW or Ford logo on it?
If not, then they are not the same!

Does the BMW engine have Mitsubishi or Ford logo on it? Or does the Mitsubishi engine have the BMW or Ford logo on it?
If not, then they are not the same!

'Practically the same', practically being the operative word here.

 

[edyvw]

Makes sense from a business perspective, cant send the apprentice down to repco to buy a different oil for each vehicle.
It's entirely plausible the vehicle in question never/infrequently received LL04, it did come from Darwin after all.
Local Indy charged for LL04 last service but again, there is only two certified options on the market here, both relatively expensive. But these guys



'Practically the same', practically being the operative word here.

All engines are practically same. All modern diesel engines have VGT, CR pump etc.
For example, the Toyota 2.2 D-4D engine was "practically" the same as any other engine when it was introduced. However, unlike the Toyota engine, other engines could make more than 100,000km. Toyota's would disintegrate.

 

[SR5]

The only real risk I think is the DPF clogging but I think I'll be fine. It meets several tight DPF friendly specs.

I agree, the biggest risk is likely to be clogging the DPF, but I think you should have that under control by running an ACEA E8 oil. I was looking at the Lubrizol site and it lists the following:

BMW LL04,
HTHS > 3.5 cP (oil thickness under load),
SA < 0.8% (sulphated ash),
P 700 to 900 ppm (parts per million, Phosphorus from the ZDDP zinc anti-wear agent),
S < 0.3 %.

API CK-4 and ACEA E11,
HTHS > 3.5 cP,
SA < 1.0%,
P < 1200 ppm,
S < 0.4 %.

ACEA E8
HTHS > 3.5 cP,
SA <1.0%,
P < 800 ppm,
S < 0.3%.

For comparison old school E4 allows up to 2.0% SA, and CI-4 and earlier has no limit. A full SAPS Euro A3/B4 oil has a SA of 1.0 to 1.6%. These would be the DPF killers.

Other stuff like soot and deposit control, corrosion and wear protection, oxidative thickening etc, should be well under control give the oil you purchased carries all of E8, E11 and CK-4.

Looking at the Lubrizol comparison charts below, E11 offers better wear and corrosion protection, while E8 offers better deposit control and DPF protection. A good combination to have together.

https://360.lubrizol.com/Resources/Relative-Performance-Tools

 

[LordNilesStandish]

I agree, the biggest risk is likely to be clogging the DPF, but I think you should have that under control by running an ACEA E8 oil. I was looking at the Lubrizol site and it lists the following:

BMW LL04,
HTHS > 3.5 cP (oil thickness under load),
SA < 0.8% (sulphated ash),
P 700 to 900 ppm (parts per million, Phosphorus from the ZDDP zinc anti-wear agent),
S < 0.3 %.

API CK-4 and ACEA E11,
HTHS > 3.5 cP,
SA < 1.0%,
P < 1200 ppm,
S < 0.4 %.

ACEA E8
HTHS > 3.5 cP,
SA <1.0%,
P < 800 ppm,
S < 0.3%.

For comparison old school E4 allows up to 2.0% SA, and CI-4 and earlier has no limit. A full SAPS Euro A3/B4 oil has a SA of 1.0 to 1.6%. These would be the DPF killers.

Other stuff like soot and deposit control, corrosion and wear protection, oxidative thickening etc, should be well under control give the oil you purchased carries all of E8, E11 and CK-4.

Looking at the Lubrizol comparison charts below, E11 offers better wear and corrosion protection, while E8 offers better deposit control and DPF protection. A good combination to have together.

https://360.lubrizol.com/Resources/Relative-Performance-Tools

Wow thanks that comparison tool is excellent.

 

[LordNilesStandish]

I agree, the biggest risk is likely to be clogging the DPF, but I think you should have that under control by running an ACEA E8 oil. I was looking at the Lubrizol site and it lists the following:

BMW LL04,
HTHS > 3.5 cP (oil thickness under load),
SA < 0.8% (sulphated ash),
P 700 to 900 ppm (parts per million, Phosphorus from the ZDDP zinc anti-wear agent),
S < 0.3 %.

API CK-4 and ACEA E11,
HTHS > 3.5 cP,
SA < 1.0%,
P < 1200 ppm,
S < 0.4 %.

ACEA E8
HTHS > 3.5 cP,
SA <1.0%,
P < 800 ppm,
S < 0.3%.

For comparison old school E4 allows up to 2.0% SA, and CI-4 and earlier has no limit. A full SAPS Euro A3/B4 oil has a SA of 1.0 to 1.6%. These would be the DPF killers.

Other stuff like soot and deposit control, corrosion and wear protection, oxidative thickening etc, should be well under control give the oil you purchased carries all of E8, E11 and CK-4.

Looking at the Lubrizol comparison charts below, E11 offers better wear and corrosion protection, while E8 offers better deposit control and DPF protection. A good combination to have together.

https://360.lubrizol.com/Resources/Relative-Performance-Tools

 

[SR5]

Wow thanks that comparison tool is excellent.

Yes it's excellent. Just remember that their note at the bottom of the page says the platform was primarily designed to compare within the same industry specification (e.g. E8 with E11), and not expressly designed to compare across industry specifications (e.g. Mack with Detroit Diesel).

However you can see specs like VDS 4.5 are based on, or an improvement of, ACEA E7. And Mack EO4.5 is based (improvement) on CK-4. Which allows a degree of comparison between charts.

 

[edyvw]

I agree, the biggest risk is likely to be clogging the DPF, but I think you should have that under control by running an ACEA E8 oil. I was looking at the Lubrizol site and it lists the following:

BMW LL04,
HTHS > 3.5 cP (oil thickness under load),
SA < 0.8% (sulphated ash),
P 700 to 900 ppm (parts per million, Phosphorus from the ZDDP zinc anti-wear agent),
S < 0.3 %.

API CK-4 and ACEA E11,
HTHS > 3.5 cP,
SA < 1.0%,
P < 1200 ppm,
S < 0.4 %.

ACEA E8
HTHS > 3.5 cP,
SA <1.0%,
P < 800 ppm,
S < 0.3%.

For comparison old school E4 allows up to 2.0% SA, and CI-4 and earlier has no limit. A full SAPS Euro A3/B4 oil has a SA of 1.0 to 1.6%. These would be the DPF killers.

Other stuff like soot and deposit control, corrosion and wear protection, oxidative thickening etc, should be well under control give the oil you purchased carries all of E8, E11 and CK-4.

Looking at the Lubrizol comparison charts below, E11 offers better wear and corrosion protection, while E8 offers better deposit control and DPF protection. A good combination to have together.

https://360.lubrizol.com/Resources/Relative-Performance-Tools

Did you also read the warning not to compare the two specifications?
Lubrizol does not post the specific N20/26 test that BMW is doing in this case, and it is unique to BMW. The only way you could compare two specifications is if those tests were done in a controlled manner on the same engine; hence, the warning not to compare.

 

[SR5]

Did you also read the warning not to compare the two specifications?
Lubrizol does not post the specific N20/26 test that BMW is doing in this case, and it is unique to BMW. The only way you could compare two specifications is if those tests were done in a controlled manner on the same engine; hence, the warning not to compare.

Yes, as per my comment in direct reference to what Lubrizol says in my post above (#54).

Also I was only comparing E8 to E11, nothing to do with BMW. I'll write it out again longhand to avoid any confusion.

E11 offers better wear and corrosion protection (than E8), while E8 offers better deposit control and DPF protection (than E11).

 

[LordNilesStandish]

Yes, as per my comment in direct reference to what Lubrizol says in my post above (#54).

Also I was only comparing E8 to E11, nothing to do with BMW. I'll write it out again longhand to avoid any confusion.

E11 offers better wear and corrosion protection (than E8), while E8 offers better deposit control and DPF protection (than E11).

Got it. It's for visualisation of comparative properties of similar specifications.

 

[LordNilesStandish]

Not bad for $135 AUD delivered on sale.

 

[SR5]

View attachment 227263
Not bad for $135 AUD delivered on sale.

Nice score, and all for the same price as 5L of M1.