CK-4 E9 substitute LL 04 in BMW N47 SEQ Oz

[SR5]

OP, here is another option for you, go to your local Isuzu dealership (PDF attached)

https://parts.isuzu.com.au/media/f0zdazfl/lubricant-product-guide-apr-21.pdf

They sell a 5W30 that ACEA C3 and "recommended" for BMW LL04, but more interesting is their 10W40 that is ACEA E6/E9 and API CK-4/SN, available in 5L, 20L and 205L.

It looks like the Isuzu oils are made by Fuchs
https://www.tradetrucks.com.au/isuzu-and-fuchs-partner-to-deliver-engine-oil/

And looking into it more, E6 (2016) has been replaced with E8 (2022). Both have good control of their Phos levels. So E6/E9 has been upgraded to E8/E11. Both with CK-4 as a 10W40 from Isuzu / Fuchs.

 

[SR5]

Your engine is not diesel just like “any” other diesel. It is passenger car diesel......
CK oils are commercial oils. They are made for engines that have huge oil sumps. Engines that have more robust DPF and other emission systems bcs. there is more space to fit them. Those oils are designed for engines that have different emission standards. They are cheaper for a REASON. Your oil sump is what, 5.5-6ltr? CK oils are for sumps in Mercedes Actros, not N47......

I don't know much about the API CK oils, but looking at the ACEA sequences, the light duty sequences like C3 or A3/B4 that the passenger car OEM specs are based on, get cut a bit of slack compared to the ACEA heavy duty E(x) specs. Sure the light duty OEMs add more requirements back in, but so do the heavy duty OEMs to the E(x) specs in their own way.

For example from ACEA for a A3/B4 or C3 light duty oil to pass the ASTM-7109 shear stability stay-in-grade viscosity test, it needs to survive 30 cycles. For the ACEA E6 or E8 heavy duty oils, they need to pass the same test for 90 cycles. Three times harder.

Yes CK-4, E9 and E11 have a max Phos limit of 1200 ppm which the robust emissions systems of commercial vehicles can take. This is well above the BMW LL04 levels of 700-900 ppm Phos for their dainty emission system. But both E8 and E6 have a max Phos limit of 800 ppm, right in the middle of the BMW requirement.

I think the reason HDEOs are cheaper, is the law of supply and demand, they are produced at far greater volumes and therefore have an economy of scale. This lower price is not a reflection of their quality, but rather a reflection of their production scale and how competitive the market is.

 

[edyvw]

I don't know much about the API CK oils, but looking at the ACEA sequences, the light duty sequences like C3 or A3/B4 that the passenger car OEM specs are based on, get cut a bit of slack compared to the ACEA heavy duty E(x) specs. Sure the light duty OEMs add more requirements back in, but so do the heavy duty OEMs to the E(x) specs in their own way.

For example from ACEA for a A3/B4 or C3 light duty oil to pass the ASTM-7109 shear stability stay-in-grade viscosity test, it needs to survive 30 cycles. For the ACEA E6 or E8 heavy duty oils, they need to pass the same test for 90 cycles. Three times harder.

Yes CK-4, E9 and E11 have a max Phos limit of 1200 ppm which the robust emissions systems of commercial vehicles can take. This is well above the BMW LL04 levels of 700-900 ppm Phos for their dainty emission system. But both E8 and E6 have a max Phos limit of 800 ppm, right in the middle of the BMW requirement.

I think the reason HDEOs are cheaper, is the law of supply and demand, they are produced at far greater volumes and therefore have an economy of scale. This lower price is not a reflection of their quality, but rather a reflection of their production scale and how competitive the market is.

ACEA is the starting point. BMW LL04 is BMW approval, not ACEA approval. BMW has its own requirements and tests.
One of the requirements in 2018 update of all LL approvals is timing chain test based on issues on N20 and N47 engines.
ACEA in his engine is irrelevant in the end as it requires LL04. That is the only thing that matters.

 

[SR5]

ACEA is the starting point. BMW LL04 is BMW approval, not ACEA approval. BMW has its own requirements and tests.

I know, that is why I said above that "OEMs add more requirements".

Speaking of which, do you know if BMW add more cycles to the ASTM-7109 test?

 

[andreigbs]

Certainly LL-04 is a tough spec to meet and be approved under, which is why many of the top rated oils are not just LL-04 but also 229.51/52 and 504/507 and C30, which are very stringent OEM specs. The OEMs are the ones to set the standards for their engines, so I would trust them that the oil designed for a particular engine is of high quality.

OP's concerns are price and availability, which perhaps not all of us can relate to. In a pinch, or to save a few bucks, one could use other than OEM spec oil, but as edyvw points out, that would not be an upgrade.

Last point I'd make is if one buys a BMW or MB or Audi/VW or Porsche diesel with the intent to skimp money on maintenance, that almost stretches it to penny wise and pound foolish. German tech does not like not meeting ze requirements unt slacking off.

Just my $0.02

 

[SR5]

One of the requirements in 2018 update of all LL approvals is timing chain test based on issues on N20 and N47 engines.

Didn't BMW have a class action lawsuit filed against them for timing chain failures?

 

[edyvw]

Didn't BMW have a class action lawsuit filed against them for timing failures?

Yes. However, that is absolutely irrelevant in this conversation. BMW, among other things, updated its timing chain requirements in 2018 (there was another update in 2022). These approvals are constantly updated every few years to address issues that might start popping up with each engine generation.
MB 229.51/52, for example, is generally considered to have the toughest testing requirements. These approvals are not just about wear or emissions. That is wishful thinking in this case. We are talking diesels with very dense power, small displacements etc.
Use what BMW wants for its engines. Using CK oils is not a replacement. It is whether the owner can get away with it. Nothing else. It is not a substitute, and it cannot be substitute.

 

[LordNilesStandish]

Didn't BMW have a class action lawsuit filed against them for timing chain failures?

it's strange that both bmw and vag, both renowned engine manufacturers with distinguished, long histories, both seemingly lost decades of experience manufacturing engines with reliable chain driven cams overnight and suddenly produced vehicles which were lucky to make 100,000 km without at least a timing chain replacement or worse catastrophic failure.
It's like something new was introduced? Which has since required 2 revisions to adress the issue.
15,000 OCI and 5.25 litre sump doesn't help either.
Like I said in my first post, the certified LL04 couldn't produce enough pressure at hot idle to tension the cam chain. I drove this vehicle on Saturday (with a belly full of 'meets the requirements of') and found my previous stated mileage before this occurred was incorrect and it actually happened at 11,000 km.
I'm honestly lucky it didn't jump a cam tooth or two.
I could keep using the LL04 at 7500 OCI to adress the severe duty short urban trip use, but why not explore other options as well?

 

[LordNilesStandish]

OP, here is another option for you, go to your local Isuzu dealership (PDF attached)

https://parts.isuzu.com.au/media/f0zdazfl/lubricant-product-guide-apr-21.pdf

They sell a 5W30 that ACEA C3 and "recommended" for BMW LL04, but more interesting is their 10W40 that is ACEA E6/E9 and API CK-4/SN, available in 5L, 20L and 205L.

It looks like the Isuzu oils are made by Fuchs
https://www.tradetrucks.com.au/isuzu-and-fuchs-partner-to-deliver-engine-oil/

And looking into it more, E6 (2016) has been replaced with E8 (2022). Both have good control of their Phos levels. So E6/E9 has been upgraded to E8/E11. Both with CK-4 as a 10W40 from Isuzu / Fuchs.

This is what I ordered on sale to trial:

APEX+ 10W-40 HEAVY DUTY PERFORMANCE (APXHD10W40)

www.nulon.com.au

It's currently ACEA E8/E11 but used to be E6/E9.
Delvac is API SP as well which should be lower saps. 0.9% I think. Many options.
Not forgetting a higher viscosity oil should have lower oil use anyway.

 

[edyvw]

it's strange that both bmw and vag, both renowned engine manufacturers with distinguished, long histories, both seemingly lost decades of experience manufacturing engines with reliable chain driven cams overnight and suddenly produced vehicles which were lucky to make 100,000 km without at least a timing chain replacement or worse catastrophic failure.
It's like something new was introduced? Which has since required 2 revisions to adress the issue.
15,000 OCI and 5.25 litre sump doesn't help either.
Like I said in my first post, the certified LL04 couldn't produce enough pressure at hot idle to tension the cam chain. I drove this vehicle on Saturday (with a belly full of 'meets the requirements of') and found my previous stated mileage before this occurred was incorrect and it actually happened at 11,000 km.
I'm honestly lucky it didn't jump a cam tooth or two.
I could keep using the LL04 at 7500 OCI to adress the severe duty short urban trip use, but why not explore other options as well?

I had N47 as part of my company in Europe, and it made 236000km before the tensioner was replaced.
All companies have these issues, not just BMW and VAG. Nissan was granading engines bcs. timing chain before 50,000km on G37's for example. Toyota had Tensioner issues on 2GR-FE also.
It is NOT LL04 that is an issue with pressure. It is KV100 that is issue and your oil pump is having issues bcs. you already have an issue with chain.
LL04 can be 0W30, 5W30, 5W40 and 0W40. Some of those oils will have KV100 as low as 11.5cst perhaps (0W30) and some as high as 14.2-14.4cst (some 5W40). Higher KV100, more pressure. As oil thins, you lose pressure bcs. your timing chain has an issue.
Address the root of the problem. No oil will help that. you can run 5W50, but eventually, it will die.

 

[LordNilesStandish]

Certainly LL-04 is a tough spec to meet and be approved under, which is why many of the top rated oils are not just LL-04 but also 229.51/52 and 504/507 and C30, which are very stringent OEM specs. The OEMs are the ones to set the standards for their engines, so I would trust them that the oil designed for a particular engine is of high quality.

OP's concerns are price and availability, which perhaps not all of us can relate to. In a pinch, or to save a few bucks, one could use other than OEM spec oil, but as edyvw points out, that would not be an upgrade.

Last point I'd make is if one buys a BMW or MB or Audi/VW or Porsche diesel with the intent to skimp money on maintenance, that almost stretches it to penny wise and pound foolish. German tech does not like not meeting ze requirements unt slacking off.

Just my $0.02

My concern is to not require costly timing chain repairs unnecessarily.

 

[edyvw]

This is what I ordered on sale to trial:

APEX+ 10W-40 HEAVY DUTY PERFORMANCE (APXHD10W40)

www.nulon.com.au

It's currently ACEA E8/E11 but used to be E6/E9.
Delvac is API SP as well which should be lower saps. 0.9% I think. Many options.
Not forgetting a higher viscosity oil should have lower oil use anyway.

You are just amsking the problem. Thicker oil will create more pressure. But your engine is already experiencing chain issues.

 

[edyvw]

My concern is to not require costly timing chain repairs unnecessarily.

You are already there! Oil pressure is an indicator of your problem.

 

[LordNilesStandish]

I had N47 as part of my company in Europe, and it made 236000km before the tensioner was replaced.
All companies have these issues, not just BMW and VAG. Nissan was granading engines bcs. timing chain before 50,000km on G37's for example. Toyota had Tensioner issues on 2GR-FE also.

Its good to hear a n47 success story. What was maintenance history? Shorter OCI etc.
I have a 2008 2GRFE with 250,000km no timing chain issues and still is in perfect order and full power, but I did turf the Toyota 0W20 genuine 'feel efficiency' oil for full synthetic high saps 10W/40.
IMHO in warmer climates where cold start isn't a concern its good practice to step up one or two viscosity grades.

 

[LordNilesStandish]

You are already there! Oil pressure is an indicator of your problem.

So if I am to follow everything your saying:
My n47 with 73,000 km always following the 15,000 km OCI and using LL 04 is now broken, requires repairs, then I am to continue on with the same lubrication regimen expecting different results.
Is the above statement correct?

 

[LordNilesStandish]

You are just amsking the problem. Thicker oil will create more pressure. But your engine is already experiencing chain issues.

It just has fresh LL 04 in it now and the issue is resolved.
Old oil just sharted itself is all.

 

[edyvw]

So if I am to follow everything your saying:
My n47 with 73,000 km always following the 15,000 km OCI and using LL 04 is now broken, requires repairs, then I am to continue on with the same lubrication regimen expecting different results.
Is the above statement correct?

No, I already said: No oil will resolve your issue! You already have problems. You can put 15W50, it will eventually fail if you do not address a root cause of the problem. The oil is not substitute for failed part. Deviating from LL04 might create more problems or not. You do not know. Your oil, AS ANY oil, is shearing. That is why you eventually have pressure issues as there is already chain problem.

Its good to hear a n47 success story. What was maintenance history? Shorter OCI etc.
I have a 2008 2GRFE with 250,000km no timing chain issues and still is in perfect order and full power, but I did turf the Toyota 0W20 genuine 'feel efficiency' oil for full synthetic high saps 10W/40.
IMHO in warmer climates where cold start isn't a concern its good practice to step up one or two viscosity grades.

10,000km intervals, using Repsol 5W30.
2GR-FE had issues with timing chain and it was resolved. VAG also resolved very fast timing chain tensioner issues.
Nulon is good company. But, SDS does not say anything about base stocks. That oil in your engine in 10,000km might be thinner than LL04. The issue for you is not cold start. Forget that (just to be clear, there are 0W40 oil that will be extremely shear stable, more than most 10W40 oils). Your problem is shearing. I would cut OCI to 10,000km at least, or even better, 7,500km. But, I would start digging what the issue is: tensioner? guides? Chain itself? Bcs. losing pressure indicates one of those issues.

 

[SR5]

@LordNilesStandish I will be interested to hear how things go for you. Yes as Edy correctly points out, it's not an approved BMW oil, but it's the sort of thing that I would try on my own car, especially once it was 12 years old. I'm happy to try a few things outside the box and live with the consequences of my decision. To be honest I think that a lot of mechanics often put the closest oil they have in, even if not strictly correct or formally approved, and the customer never knows. Regular oil changes are probably more important than anything.

Looking at Nulon Apex+ 10W40 Heavy Duty (E8, E11, CK-4), there is not much info out there, but as of a few years ago, the German company Fuchs purchased the Australian company Nulon. It's Fuchs that also make the Isuzu branded oil I was referring to above. Very good chance that it is the same stuff, just in a different package.

 

[LordNilesStandish]

No, I already said: No oil will resolve your issue! You already have problems. You can put 15W50, it will eventually fail if you do not address a root cause of the problem. The oil is not substitute for failed part. Deviating from LL04 might create more problems or not. You do not know. Your oil, AS ANY oil, is shearing. That is why you eventually have pressure issues as there is already chain problem.

10,000km intervals, using Repsol 5W30.
2GR-FE had issues with timing chain and it was resolved. VAG also resolved very fast timing chain tensioner issues.
Nulon is good company. But, SDS does not say anything about base stocks. That oil in your engine in 10,000km might be thinner than LL04. The issue for you is not cold start. Forget that (just to be clear, there are 0W40 oil that will be extremely shear stable, more than most 10W40 oils). Your problem is shearing. I would cut OCI to 10,000km at least, or even better, 7,500km. But, I would start digging what the issue is: tensioner? guides? Chain itself? Bcs. losing pressure indicates one of those issues.

Thank you now I understand. I need to monitor chain issue regardless. Possibly tensioner or other component is on its way out. However I am taking the first step and ensuring this situation is not exacerbated by sheared oil.
It is currently happily running on 5W40 and I acknowledge even 0W would be fine.
I run Castrol Edge 0W40 LL01 in my B48 and it's a fine oil and I am not looking to change this.
Yes oil is shearing and hot viscosity is the issue, 10W or 15W won't solve that.
However, in my climate if I'm not restricted to a 0W or 5W and can go to 10W or even 15W this opens up many new options.
I think getting away from the factory OCI of 15,000 is all that is required. In my case 7,500 would probably suffice but I'm going to start with 5,000 because this will be about 6 monthly, and will give me a buffer in case I miss it.
I think we can all agree though that sheared oil, which I experienced and was the catalyst for this conversation is bad for every component of the engine, and fresh quality oil changed more frequently, regardless is required under these operation conditions.

 

[edyvw]

Thank you now I understand. I need to monitor chain issue regardless. Possibly tensioner or other component is on its way out. However I am taking the first step and ensuring this situation is not exacerbated by sheared oil.
It is currently happily running on 5W40 and I acknowledge even 0W would be fine.
I run Castrol Edge 0W40 LL01 in my B48 and it's a fine oil and I am not looking to change this.
Yes oil is shearing and hot viscosity is the issue, 10W or 15W won't solve that.
However, in my climate if I'm not restricted to a 0W or 5W and can go to 10W or even 15W this opens up many new options.
I think getting away from the factory OCI of 15,000 is all that is required. In my case 7,500 would probably suffice but I'm going to start with 5,000 because this will be about 6 monthly, and will give me a buffer in case I miss it.
I think we can all agree though that sheared oil, which I experienced and was the catalyst for this conversation is bad for every component of the engine, and fresh quality oil changed more frequently, regardless is required under these operation conditions.

Do you guys have Motul X-Clean 5W40 GEN2? It is LL04 oil, but it has very high HTHS of 3.9cP.
10W40 oils can be very shear stable if made out of good base stocks. Most are not. But, take for example Motul 10W40 300V and Motul 0W40 300V. 300V is probably most popular racing oil out there. 300V is exceptional stuff. In this case 10W40 will be more shear stable than 0W40. That is bcs. less VI in 10W40. However, most regular 10W40 oils are not made out of such sophisticated base stocks. So I would bet that Castrol Edge 0W40 is more shear stable than most 10W40’s on the market. I used Castrol 0W40 on the track in my BMW and sheared very little. However, I change my oil every 5,000mls or 7,500km.