The Motor Oil Geek just did a live interview with Ravenol about this exact topic. See below link.
What makes Euro oils different?
- Thread starter FlyingTexan
- Start date
Can you give us a synopsis on this >1 hour video?
1) Europe has much more diesel engine vehicles, so oil needs to be friendly to both diesel and gas engines, as well as being able to accommodate high sulphur diesel (not that diesel in eu is high in P, but rather for the vehicles exported to other countries)
2)They are lower SAPS to protect the filters, which limits Zinc
3) Requires more shear ressistant VII
4) Germany does not allow FS labeling on Group 3 oil, unlike US
5) One should focus more on the spesific certification over viscosity grade
no like normal you are in error
So you're saying long-drain capability is not written into ACEA Sequences and manufacturer approvals, and isn't part of European rules and regulations?no like normal you are in error
edyvw
$50 site donor 2026
Zinc levels in Low-SAPS oils are on level of Full-SAPS oils. Depends which Low-SAPS oil.
I don't think this is true.
I am not aware if there are any exceptions (perhaps a a really low sulphur to leave more room for phosphorus), but full saps oil on average will have much higher zinc than C1 class oil
edyvw
$50 site donor 2026
Look at Zinc levels. SAPS is byproduct. Just bcs. oil has high Zinc doesn’t mean sulfated ash will be high.
You know that letter P in saPs is the same p in zddP, right?
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
I see what you did there
The phosphorous limit for mid/low SAPS oils (with the exception of C1) is higher than the API limit. C1 is equal to or less than 500ppm, C3 is 700-900ppm, C4 is equal to or less than 900ppm and C5 is 700-900ppm.
Some Mobil examples, relative to those limits:
ESP X2 0W-20 (C5/C6): 880ppm
ESP 0W-30 (C3): 800ppm
ESP X3 0W-40 (C3): 900ppm
ESP 5W-30 (C3): 800ppm
Mobil does not have a C1 product in the Mobil 1 product line from what I can see. A quick scroll of the Afton handbook doesn't appear to yield any OEM co-approvals with C1 either, so I'm not even sure what applications call for it.
The API phosphorous limit is 800ppm for the RC (xW-30 and below) grades. We have historically seen a broad spectrum of levels relative to that limit:
Mobil 1 5W-20: 760ppm
Mobil 1 5W-30: 760ppm
Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy 0W-16: 760ppm
Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy 0W-20: 760ppm
Mobil 1 High Mileage oils: 800ppm
Interestingly, the Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy oils are UP from 650ppm in the 2019 version of the Mobil Product Guide, while the regular Mobil 1 oils are down from 800ppm.
And for full SAPS oils:
Full-SAPS:
FS 0W-40: 930ppm
FS X2 5W-50: 930ppm
FS 5W-40: 930ppm
Interestingly, most of these are down from 1,000ppm in the 2019 version of the Mobil Product Guide.
edyvw
$50 site donor 2026
Yes, different Phosphoroius compounds are used. You know that, right?
This is a very useful information, thanks @OVERKILL.I see what you did there
The phosphorous limit for mid/low SAPS oils (with the exception of C1) is higher than the API limit. C1 is equal to or less than 500ppm, C3 is 700-900ppm, C4 is equal to or less than 900ppm and C5 is 700-900ppm.
Some Mobil examples, relative to those limits:
ESP X2 0W-20 (C5/C6): 880ppm
ESP 0W-30 (C3): 800ppm
ESP X3 0W-40 (C3): 900ppm
ESP 5W-30 (C3): 800ppm
Mobil does not have a C1 product in the Mobil 1 product line from what I can see. A quick scroll of the Afton handbook doesn't appear to yield any OEM co-approvals with C1 either, so I'm not even sure what applications call for it.
The API phosphorous limit is 800ppm for the RC (xW-30 and below) grades. We have historically seen a broad spectrum of levels relative to that limit:
Mobil 1 5W-20: 760ppm
Mobil 1 5W-30: 760ppm
Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy 0W-16: 760ppm
Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy 0W-20: 760ppm
Mobil 1 High Mileage oils: 800ppm
Interestingly, the Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy oils are UP from 650ppm in the 2019 version of the Mobil Product Guide, while the regular Mobil 1 oils are down from 800ppm.
And for full SAPS oils:
Full-SAPS:
FS 0W-40: 930ppm
FS X2 5W-50: 930ppm
FS 5W-40: 930ppm
Interestingly, most of these are down from 1,000ppm in the 2019 version of the Mobil Product Guide.
The original comment was the following, where low vs full saps oil are compared (not mid saps) and claimed to have "level" zinc level, which i disagreed.
Which is irrelevant.
Zddp has P in it. More zddp, more P. We can draw as many circles as you want.
And there might a some oils that are exception (which i dont know any) where it has low zddp but in full saps because of something else, but i don't think it makes sense to detach saps category from zddp level.
edyvw
$50 site donor 2026
Which is irrelevant. The byproduct is what matters.
Mobil 1 ESP 0W30 has both Z and P above 900ppm, which is in line with many Full SAPS oils.
For emission equipment protection, SA levels are key. You can have as much Z and P, but the sulfated ash byproduct is what is key.
Oh okay, so you just did not know ESP is a mid saps oil, and not a low saps. I was worried there was more to it.
I guess we can leave it here now
Mobil 1 website used to have a PDF which listed the amount of P, Zn etc for each product line. I can't find it on their mobile site
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
It's still there, that's where I got the levels I posted, from the 2022 version of the Mobil Product Guide. If you go to the FS 0W-40 product, you'll see it linked there.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Yes, and if we look at the PSA Low SAPs service oils, they are C3, which is why I put the slash between low/mid, since there's a lot of crossover.
PSA considers C5 mid-SAPS:
But as you saw in my post, C3 and C5 both have the same Phosphorous range of 700-900ppm.
I know you specified C1, but as I noted, I have no idea what applications actually spec C1 as all of the OEM standards listed in the Afton handbook seem to avoid it.
edyvw
$50 site donor 2026
I did know, as ESP is 0.8% Sulfated Ash (actually, lab reports are 0.82%). We generally put anything below 0.8% as Low SAPS, but I will grant you that, since it is not below 0.5% SA level.
But you seem not to understand that what matters is that you can cook oil with a higher amount of Zinc and phosphorus and still get lower SAPS. Everything depends on how much sulphur content zinc produces. That is why Lower SAPS oils (below 1%, full SAPS are genrrally 1.10% and up) are more expensive to make.