What is my Honda Pilot engine's REAL problem?

[Adam_in_NH]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I'd send some pics to the oil company who said you can run their oil till the MM says to change it. These blanket statements are what gets oil companies in trouble too.


Great idea, I'll look into that.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Adam_in_NH
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I'd send some pics to the oil company who said you can run their oil till the MM says to change it. These blanket statements are what gets oil companies in trouble too.


Great idea, I'll look into that.


You should, these blanket statements oould end up costing the end user money. It would be great if you only used one oil in that engine. If that were the case maybe Honda and the oil company should pay. Honda for the lousy design, and the oil company for the blanket statement.

 

[yonyon]

Imagine this Honda rep being faced with the possibility of XOM adding "*except inferior Honda applications" all over the place. They have to protect their own interests after all.

That's a very big stick that an XOM rep won't have to use because they have it and it's big.

 

[dblshock]

the VCM not only degrades the driving experience and ruins the engine it also delivers lousy fuel mileage...wow.

My '10 4WD scrubbed off tires, required PIA $100 15k rear pumkin fluid changes and was horrible in any wind other than at the tail. This unit is a Honda disaster.

 

[Vikas]

Question to people who have experience in assessing wear on cam lobes:-

Is the wear shown on the good bank reasonable for 90K miles engine with manufacturer's OCI interval? It is my belief that those scratch marks should not be there. At least I would not expect them at 90K on a well maintained engine.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: yonyon
Imagine this Honda rep being faced with the possibility of XOM adding "*except inferior Honda applications" all over the place. They have to protect their own interests after all.

That's a very big stick that an XOM rep won't have to use because they have it and it's big.


The king of long drain oils has a few vehicles that they don't recommend going their full advertised distance with. They make it known, XOM should make it known too, unless they're the FF for Honda. LOL Then all bets are off and let the buyer learn the hard way like Adam did.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Vikas
Question to people who have experience in assessing wear on cam lobes:-

Is the wear shown on the good bank reasonable for 90K miles engine with manufacturer's OCI interval? It is my belief that those scratch marks should not be there. At least I would not expect them at 90K on a well maintained engine.


I've seen engines with 200,000+ miles with cams in visually better shape, and left in service after a valve job was done on the engine. I guess the question would be how good is good? We'd have to mic them up, and compare to new, and other engine designs with the same mileage.

 

[antiqueshell]

I can't say it enough, when there is ANY question of warranty coverage ALWAYS get a manufacturer rep involved BEFORE you have ANY work done on the car at the dealer!

My guess is that IF the OP had contacted AHM and requested that a district service manager needs to come out upon inspection of the engine internals and look for himself, I bet they would have already granted his warranty coverage.

If you are NOT getting the OK for warranty coverage you think you should make sure the manufacture is involved before any work is done!

 

[Tortuga]

Adam, Mobil indicates that you can by Mobil 1 ESP at a Mercedes dealership.

http://www.mobiloil.com/usa-english/moto...ula_M_5W40.aspx

 

[ltslimjim]

Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
I can't say it enough, when there is ANY question of warranty coverage ALWAYS get a manufacturer rep involved BEFORE you have ANY work done on the car at the dealer!

My guess is that IF the OP had contacted AHM and requested that a district service manager needs to come out upon inspection of the engine internals and look for himself, I bet they would have already granted his warranty coverage.

If you are NOT getting the OK for warranty coverage you think you should make sure the manufacture is involved before any work is done!


This is a great point for all under warranty.

PS: Thanks for all of the updates and for Trav's continued help to the OP.

PPS: Any thoughts on how long/what oil to break-in the new cams? Any need to wait until using the kreen?

 

[Adam_in_NH]

Originally Posted By: ltslimjim
Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
I can't say it enough, when there is ANY question of warranty coverage ALWAYS get a manufacturer rep involved BEFORE you have ANY work done on the car at the dealer!

My guess is that IF the OP had contacted AHM and requested that a district service manager needs to come out upon inspection of the engine internals and look for himself, I bet they would have already granted his warranty coverage.

If you are NOT getting the OK for warranty coverage you think you should make sure the manufacture is involved before any work is done!


This is a great point for all under warranty.

PS: Thanks for all of the updates and for Trav's continued help to the OP.

PPS: Any thoughts on how long/what oil to break-in the new cams? Any need to wait until using the kreen?


The day I found about that this was a bigger problem then a valve adjustment I asked the dealer to contact the Honda Rep and also called Honda myself. That was on July 3rd. Shortly thereafter the Honda Rep declined to provide assistance so I kept after the Honda Consumer people myself, with five phone calls and zero positive responses from Honda. Last Friday we found the galled cam when the motor was open at the dealer's shop for pictures. So my choice was to close the motor back up un-repaired and risk further engine damage, or have them put the new cam in and have a working vehicle for some summer travel. Before the repair was done yesterday the dealer called my Honda Case Manager back and she finally returned my call to say 'No'. See my previous post for details on that call. If I had another vehicle I may just have left it sitting there until everything was settled. I could have rented a car for a couple of weeks but that would have cost me almost as much as the repair.

It is interesting that that Honda asked for our pictures after they declined assistance again yesterday, and the dealer arranged for me to meet the Area Rep in person this Friday. Considering all the attention this thread is getting, Honda would be wise to do the right thing in my opinion.

I have to say that I really dislike using the legal system, but without other options I will not hesitate to file a small claims action. I will also consider a class action if there are enough other Honda owners which share my situation.

 

[doitmyself]

Don't be surprised to find out that the Honda rep is well trained, well versed, and is an expert at simply saying NO, no matter what your reasoning is.

On the other hand, if your presentation is well thought out, they might come around just for the sake of good will.

If they offer a partial settlement (say 1/2), will you accept?

 

[LeakySeals]

Not trashing the industry here, but I personally have never met a mechanic that didnt want to replace something for a fix, vs. a less costly cleaning to see if that would suffice. Several times I've been told I need an engine rebuild, when it was only stuck rings. Not suggesting this is your scenario, but something to ponder when you hand them your credit card.

 

[Fyrb4ll]

And people scorn me when I say that the auto mfr's oil choice is NOT in OUR best interest.....but theirs. This attitude you are getting from one of the most reputable mfr's there is, is proof that once warranty is up, you are on your own.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Adam_in_NH


I have to say that I really dislike using the legal system, but without other options I will not hesitate to file a small claims action. I will also consider a class action if there are enough other Honda owners which share my situation.


I believe the legal system and the Internet are your friends in this situation. If you don't get satisfaction, hit the message boards and dig into how many people have this engine and have problems with it. Trav knows of a few I'm sure. Then contact those people and ask them about a class action lawsuit. The only investment you'll have to find out is your time. If I were you, and I had the time that's what I'd be doing.

 

[dwgwater]

I've been following this thread with interest as I have a 2010 Pilot. A lot of attention has been directed to the VCM system, but my experience with my car is that the VCM is rarely engaged. This is a heavy vehicle with the aerodynamics of a brick. My highway gas mileage is rarely over 20mpg, up from 16 or so in the usual suburban driving. Either way, the engine is always working hard, whether its getting up to speed or knocking the air out of the way to maintain speed. By comparison, the '08 Odyssey my Pilot replaced had the same motor but got mid-20s on the highway, which I think is because the Ody pushed less air.

The VCM programming is probably highly optimized to the EPA mpg cycle to squeeze out an extra mpg or two for CAFE reasons and does little or nothing in normal use. Also, NH isn't flat like it is here in the Midwest. Even the slightest grade will kick the system out of VCM mode in my experience. I doubt Adam's car ran enough in VCM mode to cause that kind of cam damage.

Given the evidence of heat damage and/or cooked oil, I wonder if there's an undiagnosed coolant flow or oil flow issue that led to that bank running abnormally hot, perhaps VCM related but likely not. Better oil would have handled the heat better, but that doesn't get to the reason why that bank is hot in the first place. I also think back to the early days of turbos, when the recommendation was to let the car idle for a minute or two before shutting it off to allow the oil flow to cool off the turbo

That said, I agree this engine is hard on oil. I once let the oil go to 15% on the MM before I changed mine. The old oil looked like the oil that came out of the 60s era diesel my dad owned. Since then, I dump the oil at 50% on the MM, but don't reset it. That way you don't miss the secondary codes for ATF, VTM-4, etc. If Honda based the MM on the V6 in its other cars, they failed to recognize how much harder the engine works on this heavy, square front vehicle. To the extent that oil life correlates to fuel use, the Pilot V6 ought to have a much shorter change interval that a V6 Accord
dg

 

[Solarent]

Originally Posted By: doitmyself
Don't be surprised to find out that the Honda rep is well trained, well versed, and is an expert at simply saying NO, no matter what your reasoning is.

On the other hand, if your presentation is well thought out, they might come around just for the sake of good will.

If they offer a partial settlement (say 1/2), will you accept?


I'm a little surprised that Honda isn't willing to just eat the cost of this repair just to save face. It's pretty obvious that they are making poor oil recommendations for longer then necessary drains (as evidenced by the memo Adam posted). IMO $750 isn't that bad for the repair cost - it's not like the entire engine had to be rebuilt. Honda should just redeem you for the work done and call it a day - encouraging you to buy another honda by virtue of their customer service.

I personally would never own a Honda, but I've been involved in customer service long enough that $750 repair to make a customer happy isn't that much in the grand scheme of things in the vehicle dealership world.

 

[R2d2]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Again here is a case where we want oil to compensate for a poor engine design. JMO


Again, EVERY engine has a point after which any reasonable oil, conventional especially, will begin to break down. One half of this engine gets hotter than the other half, but that's beside the point; the same oil in the sump gets pumped to both halves. ALL engines have areas that get hotter than other areas. ALL engines. The point is that there is an interval where even a VCM-equipped Honda V-6 engine will not experience this type of sludge and varnish. 9k miles on conventional oil is BEYOND that point. Experience shows that a 5k mile interval works much better. That doesn't make it a "good" or a "bad" design; we're simply seeing the effects of an inappropriate oil change interval being specified.

The fact is that Honda made a mistake in the MM programming on this engine. It's clearly Honda's mistake, and in my opinion, Honda has furthered the mistake by NOT addressing it. This is Honda's problem, no doubt. But I don't think the blame is put on the correct element here.


What makes you believe they haven't addressed it, Honda made internal changes to the J35Z2 engine that I have between the 2010 and 2011 model year. There was a spec sheet listing those changes in design, and tolerances floating around from Honda, can't seem to locate it, plus there was at least 1 ecm update to address an issue with VCM on earlier models. My own experience so far 50k miles have been great, I take the OLM down to 15% and change, so far strictly honda 0w-20 (got a good deal on) but have run out of that, my next OCI will be Mobil 1 0w-20. I average between 8-11K miles per OCI, there is no visible varnish 90% highway runs getting as high as 34mpg. BTW the OP has an J35Z4 version of the engine, which originally would only go either all 6 cylinders or 3 cylinders in eco mode, there was a ECM update to allow that engine, to go either 3, 4, or 6 cylinders and I believe it was to address spark plug foiling on the eco side bank. Either way I'm glad I sprung the $300 for the Honda 100k mile extended bumper to bumper (zero deductible) warranty, would have saved the OP some trouble.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: R2d2
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Again here is a case where we want oil to compensate for a poor engine design. JMO


Again, EVERY engine has a point after which any reasonable oil, conventional especially, will begin to break down. One half of this engine gets hotter than the other half, but that's beside the point; the same oil in the sump gets pumped to both halves. ALL engines have areas that get hotter than other areas. ALL engines. The point is that there is an interval where even a VCM-equipped Honda V-6 engine will not experience this type of sludge and varnish. 9k miles on conventional oil is BEYOND that point. Experience shows that a 5k mile interval works much better. That doesn't make it a "good" or a "bad" design; we're simply seeing the effects of an inappropriate oil change interval being specified.

The fact is that Honda made a mistake in the MM programming on this engine. It's clearly Honda's mistake, and in my opinion, Honda has furthered the mistake by NOT addressing it. This is Honda's problem, no doubt. But I don't think the blame is put on the correct element here.


What makes you believe they haven't addressed it, Honda made internal changes to the J35Z2 engine that I have between the 2010 and 2011 model year. There was a spec sheet listing those changes in design, and tolerances floating around from Honda, can't seem to locate it, plus there was at least 1 ecm update to address an issue with VCM on earlier models. My own experience so far 50k miles have been great, I take the OLM down to 15% and change, so far strictly honda 0w-20 (got a good deal on) but have run out of that, my next OCI will be Mobil 1 0w-20. I average between 8-11K miles per OCI, there is no visible varnish 90% highway runs getting as high as 34mpg. BTW the OP has an J35Z4 version of the engine, which originally would only go either all 6 cylinders or 3 cylinders in eco mode, there was a ECM update to allow that engine, to go either 3, 4, or 6 cylinders and I believe it was to address spark plug foiling on the eco side bank. Either way I'm glad I sprung the $300 for the Honda 100k mile extended bumper to bumper (zero deductible) warranty, would have saved the OP some trouble.


Honda made changes in 2010 and 2011, how does that help the OP? If he got a recall notice, or was informed in some other way to bring his vehicle in for Honda to address the problem, then the OP is to blame. If not Honda should foot the bill here.

 

[R2d2]

No argument hear, I believe 100% everything the OP has stated. What I am saying is the 2009 engine is not the same as the newer updated engine, and I believe Honda has addressed that. I also think there is 0% percent chance at this point that Honda will foot the bill for an out of warranty repair, just like Toyota, Ford, Nissan, GM wouldn't.