What is my Honda Pilot engine's REAL problem?

[Boss302fan]

Originally Posted By: Mau
Originally Posted By: Boss302fan
I purchased a new 2003 Acura MDX with the V6 in 03 and was glad to dump it in 2011 at 135K miles. It ticked from 90K on, after 3K-5K OCI's it whole life(90% rural driving at 45MPH+).

I would say, that I used syn just about every oil change after the first 5000 miles. Changing the oil on a short OCI did not help my engine. I am pretty sure I used Mobil 1... Unless of course the Acura dealer lied to me and charged me for syn and used conventional. Who knows.

Very poor engine design is 100% the problem...


LOL I hope you looked into a valve adjustment instead of deeming the engine design at fault. Your 2003 3.5L is very different from the Pilots. Your 3.5 is similar to my 3.5 and its a smooth and quiet engine.


Valve adjustments were done and did nothing...

 

[gogozy]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
I think there are programmers out there that allow you to disable VCM.

This is not an engine design issue. The design is robust. This is primarily a MM programming issue. If the MM were calibrated for shorter drain intervals, this problem would likely be avoided. If higher quality oil is used at shorter intervals than the MM indicates are used, I know personally that the problem is avoided.

The engine design itself is fine, and quite good really. It's this VCM implementation combined with long drain intervals that are gumming up the works, so to speak. There are a number of ways around it. The easiest is to simply use synthetic oil every 5,000 miles. Problem solved, for good.

Saying this is a poor engine design is like saying that GM's high feature V-6s have a poor engine design because they're hard on oil and the OLM allows only 5,000 mile oil changes. They're not of a poor design; they're simply harder on oil than other engines. The main difference is that Honda's MM appears to be too liberal with its oil change interval recommendations, and GM has correctedly calibrated theirs. Honda's fault, to be sure, but just ignore it. Heck, I don't even follow the MM on my CR-V.


Here's where I have issue. If the engine design VCM is part of this design, was that good, why is only half the engine sludged up? The oil held up fine in the other half of the engine, in fact it was pretty clean. A good synthetic oil for 5000 miles might have helped, but would it work in all applications? Again here is a case where we want oil to compensate for a poor engine design. JMO

from what i read, the VCM only require some minor modification on the existing VTEC of J series, so it's very "economical" for Honda. the design had not receive a warm welcome from Honda user community, reliability wasn't a issue at beginning, but varies dyno and test run at it's introduction had shown there is a noticeable torque hole in mid-range rpm, and subsequent owner reporting show no improvement of FE compare to none-vcm model. at first, VCM J engine are only fitted the Honda 2WD. I don't think VCM are ever implement on the Acura. I would call it a poor engine design, and Honda shall acknowledge it.
with so many VCMed Odyssey, Pilot, and Accord on the road today, with EPA implication.... I hope Honda do the right thing and come forward, admit the failure or deficiency on programming on OLM, or engine design surround with vcm, or issue the TSB to address it. the J series engine itself are great, but the 5AT and the VCM are giving it a bad name.

 

[LeakySeals]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Again here is a case where we want oil to compensate for a poor engine design. JMO


Again, EVERY engine has a point after which any reasonable oil, conventional especially, will begin to break down. One half of this engine gets hotter than the other half, but that's beside the point; the same oil in the sump gets pumped to both halves. ALL engines have areas that get hotter than other areas. ALL engines. The point is that there is an interval where even a VCM-equipped Honda V-6 engine will not experience this type of sludge and varnish. 9k miles on conventional oil is BEYOND that point. Experience shows that a 5k mile interval works much better. That doesn't make it a "good" or a "bad" design; we're simply seeing the effects of an inappropriate oil change interval being specified.

The fact is that Honda made a mistake in the MM programming on this engine. It's clearly Honda's mistake, and in my opinion, Honda has furthered the mistake by NOT addressing it. This is Honda's problem, no doubt. But I don't think the blame is put on the correct element here.


So you see no problem with the design of this engine? The MM is a small part of the problem here. The big problem is in the design, and the way it generates heat on the front bank. I'm not disputing a shorter OCI and synthetic oil won't help. But you're still not going to stop the front bank from overheating, that's the design flaw.

Most well designed engines can handle the heat, and not require a synthetic oil, or special a OCI to do so. Most well designed engines won't sludge up half the engine. It will be all sludge or none, and the sludge will only occur when neglected.

I agree that aluminum does not dissipate heat as well as cast iron. Prone to hotspots.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Was it the perfect engine from Honda?


I said I wouldn't respond, but feel I must to this. I don't believe anyone has said that any engine is a perfect engine. I know I sure haven't. Nobody has designed and built "the perfect engine". It's impossible. Engines (and everything else that goes into an automobile) are designed, tested, validated, and constructed by human beings. We are inherently prone to error; that's our nature.

 

[gogozy]

thanks to OP's pictures, these picture tell a clear story and message to Honda, it's like "before vs after" "have vs have not" commercials. I wonder if there is anyway to measure the temperature of the front blank in ECO mode. I also heard Honda has a black box in its cars after 2003 or later, it would record certain events with mileage. these would put Honda in great disadvantages if these event recorder capture the OLM reading the milesage of OLM reset, and that latter match dealer services record to prove owner had follow the recommendation.
as for warranty period, there had been case judge side with owner, beyond warranty period, simply because the product still need to provide a "reasonable" service life. the question is, how long is this "reasonable" service life. we can ask Honda and I am sure Honda does not like people to think it's car only has 90k miles life.
best wish to OP.

 

[Vikas]

Is it possible that Honda saved significant amount of money by having to put necessary parts to shut down only one specific bank as opposed to have the ability to shut down either bank? For example, fancy camshaft tickery is needed to avoid pumping losses of dead cylinder. I am assuming when a cylinder is deactivated, its exhaust valves is kept open.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Was it the perfect engine from Honda?


I said I wouldn't respond, but feel I must to this. I don't believe anyone has said that any engine is a perfect engine. I know I sure haven't. Nobody has designed and built "the perfect engine". It's impossible. Engines (and everything else that goes into an automobile) are designed, tested, validated, and constructed by human beings. We are inherently prone to error; that's our nature.


True, but with Honda's rep for building reliable engines, long lasting, and some would say bullet proof, they sure dropped the ball with this one. The proof is in the pictures. No well designed engine would sludge up one bank the way this one did, and leave the other bank in very good shape. That in a nutshell is my beef with this engine. The oil did its job in one bank of the engine.

Here's some food for more discussion: Should the oil company be to held to blame? LOL If I were defending the oil company I'd say hold the head pictures side by side and explain why the oil did fine on one side and not the other. I think most people would agree the engine design is to blame here.

 

[Bill in Utah]

I don't really thing this engine "sludged" up that much. Its more of a over heating and deposits.

I think the oil change reminder system needed to be re calibrated (like GM just did with some of their models) and that would have fixed this situation (well other than knock off with the EPA koolaid that makes all MFG play with "features" like this to get x number more points on the CAFE roll)

The fix for this is first knock off the running on 3 cyl. Second is lower the OCI.

That would have solved this issue IMO.

Bill

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
I don't really thing this engine "sludged" up that much. Its more of a over heating and deposits.

I think the oil change reminder system needed to be re calibrated (like GM just did with some of their models) and that would have fixed this situation (well other than knock off with the EPA koolaid that makes all MFG play with "features" like this to get x number more points on the CAFE roll)

The fix for this is first knock off the running on 3 cyl. Second is lower the OCI.

That would have solved this issue IMO.

Bill


I'd rather pay the extra $5 a week in gas, if that, and have it run on 6 cylinders all the time. I bet it would probably be a good engine running on all 6 cylinders all the time.

 

[Bill in Utah]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
I don't really thing this engine "sludged" up that much. Its more of a over heating and deposits.

I think the oil change reminder system needed to be re calibrated (like GM just did with some of their models) and that would have fixed this situation (well other than knock off with the EPA koolaid that makes all MFG play with "features" like this to get x number more points on the CAFE roll)

The fix for this is first knock off the running on 3 cyl. Second is lower the OCI.

That would have solved this issue IMO.

Bill


I'd rather pay the extra $5 a week in gas, if that, and have it run on 6 cylinders all the time. I bet it would probably be a good engine running on all 6 cylinders all the time.


My Dad had the 3.5 in his Vue and it was a EXCELLENT engine. High 20s for MPG, LOW RPM at 75mpg and all the power you'd want for an AWD vehicle.

Easy on the oil and was running PERFECT and very clean when it was taken out of service just past 100k.

Agree that I'd pay the $200 a year more in gas for a simpler engine. But that is not a choice in this marketplace and will only get worst.

This is just a start of what will be the norm IMO.

Bill

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
I don't really thing this engine "sludged" up that much. Its more of a over heating and deposits.

I think the oil change reminder system needed to be re calibrated (like GM just did with some of their models) and that would have fixed this situation (well other than knock off with the EPA koolaid that makes all MFG play with "features" like this to get x number more points on the CAFE roll)

The fix for this is first knock off the running on 3 cyl. Second is lower the OCI.

That would have solved this issue IMO.

Bill


I'd rather pay the extra $5 a week in gas, if that, and have it run on 6 cylinders all the time. I bet it would probably be a good engine running on all 6 cylinders all the time.


My Dad had the 3.5 in his Vue and it was a EXCELLENT engine. High 20s for MPG, LOW RPM at 75mpg and all the power you'd want for an AWD vehicle.

Easy on the oil and was running PERFECT and very clean when it was taken out of service just past 100k.

Agree that I'd pay the $200 a year more in gas for a simpler engine. But that is not a choice in this marketplace and will only get worst.

This is just a start of what will be the norm IMO.

Bill


Amen!

 

[gogozy]

worse, I wonder if vcmed J35 really saving gas, the saved gas on eco mode may went back to fill the torque hole in mid range during normal run?

 

[mechanicx]

I still wonder what play the TSB for reprogamming the VCM has in all this if any. Seems they don't all have this degree of an issue aspecially the later ~'10 up models.

A VCM that may have had inadequate programming and runs hot, 5W20 and an OLM that runs excessively long all add up to a bad combination. All three need to be taken in consideration the VCM programming scheme and heat build up, OCI in light of lower 5W20 viscosity and NOACK. Anyway you slice it Honda dropped the ball here. GM is warrantying their engines for 5/100k miles so they have to stay on top of engine durability and the OLM.

 

[volk06]

Originally Posted By: Adam_in_NH

Dave, Mobil took my call and I spoke with their rep on the first call attempt. I called the 'Other Contact Options' technical question number on their website. By all means please give them another call. I wrote down what they told me at the time. Here is the complete rundown that Mobil gave me concerning their oils. They told me the following were their manufacturer's basic recommendations:

Mobil Special: 3000 miles, 3 months (conventional)
Mobil Super: 5000 miles, 6 months (conventional)
Mobil Hi-Mileage: 7500 miles, 6 months (conventional)
Mobil Super-Synthetic: 7500 miles, 6 months (conv-synth mix)
Mobil 1: 10,000 miles, one year (synthetic)
Mobil 1 EP: 15,000 miles, didn't ask the time (synthetic)

I believe if you check the Mobil web site you will see some of the numbers I quote listed there as well. Sorry I'm not understanding why this sounds unusual.

Mobil also said there are no issues changing oil types of changing from a different brand of oil to Mobil. They did say to refrain from using any other grade oil then that which is recommended by the manufacturer for the particular vehicle.


This is laughable. The mobil tech didn't even know the composition/warranty of their own oils.
This is from their website/pds
Mobil Super HM - synthetic blend 5,000 miles/6 months
Mobil Super Synthetic - Synthetic 7,500 miles/6 months

Or the OEM OCI for all the oils.
http://www.mobil.us/USA-English-LCW/carengineoils_mobil-super-warranty.aspx

http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENINDMOMobil_Super_High_Mileage.aspx

 

[Adam_in_NH]

Originally Posted By: volk06
Originally Posted By: Adam_in_NH

Dave, Mobil took my call and I spoke with their rep on the first call attempt. I called the 'Other Contact Options' technical question number on their website. By all means please give them another call. I wrote down what they told me at the time. Here is the complete rundown that Mobil gave me concerning their oils. They told me the following were their manufacturer's basic recommendations:

Mobil Special: 3000 miles, 3 months (conventional)
Mobil Super: 5000 miles, 6 months (conventional)
Mobil Hi-Mileage: 7500 miles, 6 months (conventional)
Mobil Super-Synthetic: 7500 miles, 6 months (conv-synth mix)
Mobil 1: 10,000 miles, one year (synthetic)
Mobil 1 EP: 15,000 miles, didn't ask the time (synthetic)

I believe if you check the Mobil web site you will see some of the numbers I quote listed there as well. Sorry I'm not understanding why this sounds unusual.

Mobil also said there are no issues changing oil types of changing from a different brand of oil to Mobil. They did say to refrain from using any other grade oil then that which is recommended by the manufacturer for the particular vehicle.


This is laughable. The mobil tech didn't even know the composition/warranty of their own oils.
This is from their website/pds
Mobil Super HM - synthetic blend 5,000 miles/6 months
Mobil Super Synthetic - Synthetic 7,500 miles/6 months

Or the OEM OCI for all the oils.
http://www.mobil.us/USA-English-LCW/carengineoils_mobil-super-warranty.aspx

http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENINDMOMobil_Super_High_Mileage.aspx


Yes, I noted this discrepancy but then realized we need to be careful here not to confuse a manufacturer's recommendations with their warranty. These are two different things, with their recommendations being practical and the warranty on their web site being business politics. What else besides politics could cause an oil manufacturer to allow an auto manufacturer do double their oil warranty? While it is possible the Mobil call center tech misspoke, I don't see why his practical recommendations are not realistic. How many time have we talked with an expert who said something like, "Well our company policy is this way, but you may consider doing it that way."

 

[Adam_in_NH]

The dealer remove the rear rocker arm girdle yesterday to inspect the rear cam. He sent me this picture and remarked that this lobe was the most warn, but is in really good shape.

Adam's Rear Cam Lobe

 

[Jim Allen]

Based on that one pic:

a) I don't see much sludge or varnish, so that 10K interval didn't hurt you, and;

b) there's nothing seriously wrong with that lobe and, by association if it's the worst, the others, and likely the followers either. So what's the cause of the noise, then?

Kinda cracks me up now. 24 pages of intense speculation, wild conjecture, heated arguments and mental masturbation. Gotta love BITOGers.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
Based on that one pic:

a) I don't see much sludge or varnish, so that 10K interval didn't hurt you, and;

b) there's nothing seriously wrong with that lobe and, by association if it's the worst, the others, and likely the followers either. So what's the cause of the noise, then?

Kinda cracks me up now. 24 pages of intense speculation, wild conjecture, heated arguments and mental masturbation. Gotta love BITOGers.


How about the sludge in the other bank? One bank was clean the other a mess? What caused that? The oil did fine in one bank and not so good in the other. Maybe all this engine needs is a good cleaning and a valve adjustment? I wish I could actually see it.

 

[Adam_in_NH]

Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
Based on that one pic:

a) I don't see much sludge or varnish, so that 10K interval didn't hurt you, and;

b) there's nothing seriously wrong with that lobe and, by association if it's the worst, the others, and likely the followers either. So what's the cause of the noise, then?

Kinda cracks me up now. 24 pages of intense speculation, wild conjecture, heated arguments and mental masturbation. Gotta love BITOGers.


Jim, the noise was coming from the front valve train, which you'll see in my previous pictures. This last picture you reference is the good cam for comparison to the other bad cam.

 

[KrisZ]

Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
Kinda cracks me up now. 24 pages of intense speculation, wild conjecture, heated arguments and mental masturbation. Gotta love BITOGers.


You got that right. The only person that had any first hand experience was driven off this thread and the only reason that I can think of now, is that the things you mentioned can continue on.