What is my Honda Pilot engine's REAL problem?

[dave1251]

Originally Posted By: Adam_in_NH
Originally Posted By: ltslimjim
Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
I can't say it enough, when there is ANY question of warranty coverage ALWAYS get a manufacturer rep involved BEFORE you have ANY work done on the car at the dealer!

My guess is that IF the OP had contacted AHM and requested that a district service manager needs to come out upon inspection of the engine internals and look for himself, I bet they would have already granted his warranty coverage.

If you are NOT getting the OK for warranty coverage you think you should make sure the manufacture is involved before any work is done!


This is a great point for all under warranty.

PS: Thanks for all of the updates and for Trav's continued help to the OP.

PPS: Any thoughts on how long/what oil to break-in the new cams? Any need to wait until using the kreen?


The day I found about that this was a bigger problem then a valve adjustment I asked the dealer to contact the Honda Rep and also called Honda myself. That was on July 3rd. Shortly thereafter the Honda Rep declined to provide assistance so I kept after the Honda Consumer people myself, with five phone calls and zero positive responses from Honda. Last Friday we found the galled cam when the motor was open at the dealer's shop for pictures. So my choice was to close the motor back up un-repaired and risk further engine damage, or have them put the new cam in and have a working vehicle for some summer travel. Before the repair was done yesterday the dealer called my Honda Case Manager back and she finally returned my call to say 'No'. See my previous post for details on that call. If I had another vehicle I may just have left it sitting there until everything was settled. I could have rented a car for a couple of weeks but that would have cost me almost as much as the repair.

It is interesting that that Honda asked for our pictures after they declined assistance again yesterday, and the dealer arranged for me to meet the Area Rep in person this Friday. Considering all the attention this thread is getting, Honda would be wise to do the right thing in my opinion.

I have to say that I really dislike using the legal system, but without other options I will not hesitate to file a small claims action. I will also consider a class action if there are enough other Honda owners which share my situation.


Adam did you send a letter to Honda corporate in Japan, per my recommendation? If not I would do so ASAP.

 

[Adam_in_NH]

Originally Posted By: dave1251
Originally Posted By: Adam_in_NH
Originally Posted By: ltslimjim
Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
I can't say it enough, when there is ANY question of warranty coverage ALWAYS get a manufacturer rep involved BEFORE you have ANY work done on the car at the dealer!

My guess is that IF the OP had contacted AHM and requested that a district service manager needs to come out upon inspection of the engine internals and look for himself, I bet they would have already granted his warranty coverage.

If you are NOT getting the OK for warranty coverage you think you should make sure the manufacture is involved before any work is done!


This is a great point for all under warranty.

PS: Thanks for all of the updates and for Trav's continued help to the OP.

PPS: Any thoughts on how long/what oil to break-in the new cams? Any need to wait until using the kreen?


The day I found about that this was a bigger problem then a valve adjustment I asked the dealer to contact the Honda Rep and also called Honda myself. That was on July 3rd. Shortly thereafter the Honda Rep declined to provide assistance so I kept after the Honda Consumer people myself, with five phone calls and zero positive responses from Honda. Last Friday we found the galled cam when the motor was open at the dealer's shop for pictures. So my choice was to close the motor back up un-repaired and risk further engine damage, or have them put the new cam in and have a working vehicle for some summer travel. Before the repair was done yesterday the dealer called my Honda Case Manager back and she finally returned my call to say 'No'. See my previous post for details on that call. If I had another vehicle I may just have left it sitting there until everything was settled. I could have rented a car for a couple of weeks but that would have cost me almost as much as the repair.

It is interesting that that Honda asked for our pictures after they declined assistance again yesterday, and the dealer arranged for me to meet the Area Rep in person this Friday. Considering all the attention this thread is getting, Honda would be wise to do the right thing in my opinion.

I have to say that I really dislike using the legal system, but without other options I will not hesitate to file a small claims action. I will also consider a class action if there are enough other Honda owners which share my situation.


Adam did you send a letter to Honda corporate in Japan, per my recommendation? If not I would do so ASAP.


No I was waiting to speak with the Honda Rep in person this Friday so I could use his name and comments with the others in the letters.

 

[Adam_in_NH]

Originally Posted By: R2d2
No argument hear, I believe 100% everything the OP has stated. What I am saying is the 2009 engine is not the same as the newer updated engine, and I believe Honda has addressed that. I also think there is 0% percent chance at this point that Honda will foot the bill for an out of warranty repair, just like Toyota, Ford, Nissan, GM wouldn't.


I agree that Honda is unlikely to provide assistance for an out of warranty repair. However the evidence (long-term varnishing & worn out cam) clearly shows that my engine had a serious defect while it was well within the warranty period, and should be covered by their warranty. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

 

[sparky123]

My oldest daughter would love to buy a used or possibly new pilot in a few yrs.time. I tell her about the "issues" these Suv's seem to have, namely the transmissions and now this. How Honda handles this situation will greatly determine her possible future buying decision. You've done everything proper. you followed their guidelines. They need to fix/repair/replace @ no charge. Good Luck!

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: R2d2
No argument hear, I believe 100% everything the OP has stated. What I am saying is the 2009 engine is not the same as the newer updated engine, and I believe Honda has addressed that. I also think there is 0% percent chance at this point that Honda will foot the bill for an out of warranty repair, just like Toyota, Ford, Nissan, GM wouldn't.


Sometimes they'll do the right thing, other times you have to twist their arm, real hard. The internet is a great tool for that. I think Adam is going to twist hard, and go viral if needed.

 

[Adam_in_NH]

I thought that those of you who have been following this little lubrication saga would appreciate the email I just sent to my Honda Service Manager...

Hi John,

I'm writing to address your service technicians comments on my recent work order: "OVERDUE FOR OIL CHANGE PER LUBE STICKER". As you can see from the meticulous oil change history I previously gave to Jeff, your Service Adviser, the oil in this vehicle was last changed at 87,178 miles. The mileage on your repair order with the above comments are noted at 90,660. Therefore the distance traveled since the last oil change was 3,482 miles. The Jiffy Lube sticker suggested an oil change at 90,178 miles, or 3,000 miles exactly. The vehicle's Maintenance Minder now reads 70% calculated oil life left.

So considering the fact that the Maintenance Minder was having me change my oil every 9,000 to 10,000 miles, but now your tech is concerned that I have exceeded another service organization's recommendation of 3,000 miles, I am wondering if your position has change from Jeff's repeated statements that I, "always go by the Maintenance Minder". I'm planning on changing my oil this weekend either way, but I would appreciate clarification before we meet with your Honda Area Rep on Friday.

Thank You,

Adam

 

[Merkava_4]

Originally Posted By: Gabe

How is it a poor engine design?? The guy didn't change his oil.


I completely agree. It's ridiculous that this thread has gone on for 26 pages about a guy who never changed his oil and is now blaming everything on the design of the engine. The OP doesn't have a leg to stand on. It's his fault that the engine is shot and nobody else's. The OP needs to own up to his mistake and move on. If anything, this thread should have lasted only one page and should have been an excellent example of what extended drains can do to your engine. Oil is the life blood of an engine; it needs to be kept clean and changed often. Plain and simple.

 

[Adam_in_NH]

Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Originally Posted By: Gabe

How is it a poor engine design?? The guy didn't change his oil.


I completely agree. It's ridiculous that this thread has gone on for 26 pages about a guy who never changed his oil and is now blaming everything on the design of the engine. The OP doesn't have a leg to stand on. It's his fault that the engine is shot and nobody else's. The OP needs to own up to his mistake and move on. If anything, this thread should have lasted only one page and should have been an excellent example of what extended drains can do to your engine. Oil is the life blood of an engine; it needs to be kept clean and changed often. Plain and simple.


I don't disagree with frequent oil changes at all, but the above statement that I never changed my oil is incorrect. If you would care to re-read the thread you will find that every oil change was done exactly when it was supposed to, according to both the Maintenance Minder and the Honda dealer. You will also read where I argued with him for a shorter OCI but, was rebuffed, and a defect became evident. We can debate if it was a hot running engine or a mis-programmed Maintenance Minder, but you can's argue that I didn't change the oil. All you need to do is look at the picture of the rear valve train which has obviously been perfectly maintained. But this has made allot of people think about engine design and proper lubrication, which is the point here, isn't it?

 

[The Critic]

Adam,

I am curious here...

Of the services you had done at the dealer, were they only the $39.95 oil changes and were you getting the full A1/B1 services done. Did you ever have any more major 30k or B12 services done at the dealer?

I think one of the major factors that contributed to their lack of contribution is because you had some services done outside, and also, I'm guessing that you did not spend a significant amount of $$ at this dealer.

When my buddy (fellow BITOGer) when through a goodwill claim recently for his 09 FX35, the service manager advised that it is based on four factors: 1) length of ownership, 2) # of new vehicles you have purchased from that brand, 3) how much money was spent at the dealer, 4) whether all services were done at the dealer. Those were 4 biggies that corporate looked at it to judge customer loyalty and were the deciding factors to see if it would be worthwhile to help.

 

[Merkava_4]

Originally Posted By: Adam_in_NH

I don't disagree with frequent oil changes at all, but the above statement that I never changed my oil is incorrect. If you would care to re-read the thread you will find that every oil change was done exactly when it was supposed to, according to both the Maintenance Minder and the Honda dealer. You will also read where I argued with him for a shorter OCI but, was rebuffed, and a defect became evident. We can debate if it was a hot running engine or a mis-programmed Maintenance Minder, but you can's argue that I didn't change the oil. All you need to do is look at the picture of the rear valve train which has obviously been perfectly maintained. But this has made allot of people think about engine design and proper lubrication, which is the point here, isn't it?


Why on earth would you go by what the Honda dealer says or by what some electronic Maintenance Minder gadget says? Who's car is it, the Honda dealer's or yours? Did Honda give you the car or did you pay for it? If you payed for the car with your own money, then you should be able to change the oil whenever you want to. As far as I'm concerned, changing the oil every 9-10k is the same as NEVER. This is basic stuff. It's like 1+1=2 and 2+2=4. You keep your oil changed and you change the oil when COMMON SENSE tells you to. Not when the dealer tells you to or when some gadget tells you to. Oil these days is expensive; I get that, but replacement engines are many times more expensive than oil is. I'd rather waste a little oil and save the engine instead of the other way around. A 3700 mile OCI would have saved your engine. Is that a little too often? Maybe, but the engine would have survived and it probably would have been pretty clean too.

 

[Tortuga]

Merkava_4, I don't think you need to jump all over Adam over this. If you don't want to read the pages and pages of this thread, then simply scroll past it. I am glad that Adam took the time to outline the problem he's had; it's provided a lot of good info. I own a Honda with the same engine and it has certainly educated me.

In regards to him ignoring the dealer's/manufacturer's recommendation, if you spend that much money on a new vehichle, shouldn't you be able to trust their maintenance recommendations? Looks like the MM is far too aggressive for this Honda and or a better type oil should be specified. Hopefully, his story here can help someone avoid the same problem. I know it's helped me; I won't be following the MM with my vehichle and I will be using a syn-blend or full-syn oil in my iVTEC engine from now on.

Thanks Adam, for sharing your experience.

 

[Merkava_4]

Originally Posted By: Tortuga
Merkava_4, I don't think you need to jump all over Adam over this. If you don't want to read the pages and pages of this thread, then simply scroll past it. I am glad that Adam took the time to outline the problem he's had; it's provided a lot of good info. I own a Honda with the same engine and it has certainly educated me.

In regards to him ignoring the dealer's/manufacturer's recommendation, if you spend that much money on a new vehichle, shouldn't you be able to trust their maintenance recommendations? Looks like the MM is far too aggressive for this Honda and or a better type oil should be specified. Hopefully, his story here can help someone avoid the same problem. I know it's helped me; I won't be following the MM with my vehichle and I will be using a syn-blend or full-syn oil in my iVTEC engine from now on.

Thanks Adam, for sharing your experience.


NO!! If I spend that kind of money on a car, I'm going to change the oil when ... I ... want to. And I don't mean to jump all over Adam. I certainly did not mean for my post to sound like that. I just think it's important for people who are reading this thread to know what the consequences are for not changing your oil. We've all made mistakes that are costly. I've made some costly mistakes too. But I think it's important, if for no other reason than a person's mental health, to own up to one's mistake and move on.

 

[AVB]

I don't know if it would have really helped, when you compare the front bank to the rear bank. The oil was fine for the rear bank for the life of the MM. The front bank probably would have cooked the oil just the same with a shorter interval, it may retain more cleaning power if changed earlier. But it would still be getting fried.

I would be concerned that what ever damaged that cam is still present. That looks like more than just damage caused by old oil.

 

[Tortuga]

Originally Posted By: AVB
I don't know if it would have really helped, when you compare the front bank to the rear bank. The oil was fine for the rear bank for the life of the MM. The front bank probably would have cooked the oil just the same with a shorter interval, it may retain more cleaning power if changed earlier. But it would still be getting fried.


Would a heavier grade oil resist the cooking better, e.g., M1 0W-40 or Rotella T6? Or just simply an oil with better NOACK numbers?

 

[gogozy]

Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Originally Posted By: Tortuga
Merkava_4, I don't think you need to jump all over Adam over this. If you don't want to read the pages and pages of this thread, then simply scroll past it. I am glad that Adam took the time to outline the problem he's had; it's provided a lot of good info. I own a Honda with the same engine and it has certainly educated me.

In regards to him ignoring the dealer's/manufacturer's recommendation, if you spend that much money on a new vehichle, shouldn't you be able to trust their maintenance recommendations? Looks like the MM is far too aggressive for this Honda and or a better type oil should be specified. Hopefully, his story here can help someone avoid the same problem. I know it's helped me; I won't be following the MM with my vehichle and I will be using a syn-blend or full-syn oil in my iVTEC engine from now on.

Thanks Adam, for sharing your experience.


NO!! If I spend that kind of money on a car, I'm going to change the oil when ... I ... want to. And I don't mean to jump all over Adam. I certainly did not mean for my post to sound like that. I just think it's important for people who are reading this thread to know what the consequences are for not changing your oil. We've all made mistakes that are costly. I've made some costly mistakes too. But I think it's important, if for no other reason than a person's mental health, to own up to one's mistake and move on.

the issue, is Adam did have dealer change the oil, as per their recommendation. Not everyone is BITOGers that knows enough to being skeptical on OLM and VCM. the pic show rear bank is in much better shape so the oil and engine, which indicate the OCI is likely okay with VCM off. threads reported by Trav are very helpful as well.

 

[lemonade]

Originally Posted By: gogozy
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Originally Posted By: Tortuga
Merkava_4, I don't think you need to jump all over Adam over this. If you don't want to read the pages and pages of this thread, then simply scroll past it. I am glad that Adam took the time to outline the problem he's had; it's provided a lot of good info. I own a Honda with the same engine and it has certainly educated me.

In regards to him ignoring the dealer's/manufacturer's recommendation, if you spend that much money on a new vehichle, shouldn't you be able to trust their maintenance recommendations? Looks like the MM is far too aggressive for this Honda and or a better type oil should be specified. Hopefully, his story here can help someone avoid the same problem. I know it's helped me; I won't be following the MM with my vehichle and I will be using a syn-blend or full-syn oil in my iVTEC engine from now on.

Thanks Adam, for sharing your experience.


NO!! If I spend that kind of money on a car, I'm going to change the oil when ... I ... want to. And I don't mean to jump all over Adam. I certainly did not mean for my post to sound like that. I just think it's important for people who are reading this thread to know what the consequences are for not changing your oil. We've all made mistakes that are costly. I've made some costly mistakes too. But I think it's important, if for no other reason than a person's mental health, to own up to one's mistake and move on.

the issue, is Adam did have dealer change the oil, as per their recommendation. Not everyone is BITOGers that knows enough to being skeptical on OLM and VCM. the pic show rear bank is in much better shape so the oil and engine, which indicate the OCI is likely okay with VCM off. threads reported by Trav are very helpful as well.

exactly, just because this Honda 3.5 is having problem or even most Honda 3.5 is having problem following OLM does not translate that we should all go back to 3k or 5k oil change. There are penty of Honda and other cars running great when they just stick with OLM.
To Merkava:
It's not that we don;t have the right to change oil early, it's our confident level regarding certain technology, in this case the OLM of this particular 3.5 VCM, some ppl like you don't trust it, and some ppl like me trust it, that's it.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: gogozy
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Originally Posted By: Tortuga
Merkava_4, I don't think you need to jump all over Adam over this. If you don't want to read the pages and pages of this thread, then simply scroll past it. I am glad that Adam took the time to outline the problem he's had; it's provided a lot of good info. I own a Honda with the same engine and it has certainly educated me.

In regards to him ignoring the dealer's/manufacturer's recommendation, if you spend that much money on a new vehichle, shouldn't you be able to trust their maintenance recommendations? Looks like the MM is far too aggressive for this Honda and or a better type oil should be specified. Hopefully, his story here can help someone avoid the same problem. I know it's helped me; I won't be following the MM with my vehichle and I will be using a syn-blend or full-syn oil in my iVTEC engine from now on.

Thanks Adam, for sharing your experience.


NO!! If I spend that kind of money on a car, I'm going to change the oil when ... I ... want to. And I don't mean to jump all over Adam. I certainly did not mean for my post to sound like that. I just think it's important for people who are reading this thread to know what the consequences are for not changing your oil. We've all made mistakes that are costly. I've made some costly mistakes too. But I think it's important, if for no other reason than a person's mental health, to own up to one's mistake and move on.

the issue, is Adam did have dealer change the oil, as per their recommendation. Not everyone is BITOGers that knows enough to being skeptical on OLM and VCM. the pic show rear bank is in much better shape so the oil and engine, which indicate the OCI is likely okay with VCM off. threads reported by Trav are very helpful as well.


What I find amusing in all of this is this: There have been many heated debates about how great the OLM is and how people who decided not to follow it by ignoring it and doing shorter OCIs were wrong. People would defend the OLM like they'd defend their mother. I see it as another example, of the OLM being WRONG. Now combine that with a lousy engine design, [which unfortunately he didn't know when he bought the vehicle], and the consumer takes a big hit. Lets not forget the GM DI engine OLM that had to be re calibrated. At least GM addressed the issue. I for one would hate to log some serious miles on an engine and then find out the OLM is wrong. I will continue to ignore mine, and in the future if I buy another vehicle with an OLM I will ignore that too. Another 10 or so extra oil changes during the life of a vehicle is still cheaper than what it cost Adam for his repairs, and Adam's bill was still cheap compared to an engine rebuild. JMO

 

[Hounds]

OK -- I've read everything here. (It reads like the Perils of Pauline, btw.)

Here's my take on this: The OP followed the maintenance schedule per the MM for several years; the VCM system, combined with the OP's driving pattern, resulted in the sludging evident in the photographs; the engine also has camshaft damage; when that damage occurred and the cause are unknownable or speculation (take your pick); the OP's vehicle is at least 20k miles (maybe 30k miles) beyond the manufacturer's warranty; the servicing dealer has offered to repair the damage for $750.

That about sum it up?

The dealer's $750 offer sounds like a reasonable compromise to me. (Actually, it sounds like a roaring good deal, but let's call it a compromise so we can move on.)

 

[bluesubie]

Originally Posted By: Hounds
...but let's call it a compromise so we can move on.)

Move on? Why? So we can flood the forum with posts about what's on sale at Wal-Mart or threads like, "OMG.... This new oil feels the best of any oil EVAR!".

-Dennis

 

[Adam_in_NH]

Originally Posted By: The Critic
Adam,

I am curious here...

Of the services you had done at the dealer, were they only the $39.95 oil changes and were you getting the full A1/B1 services done. Did you ever have any more major 30k or B12 services done at the dealer?

I think one of the major factors that contributed to their lack of contribution is because you had some services done outside, and also, I'm guessing that you did not spend a significant amount of $$ at this dealer.

When my buddy (fellow BITOGer) when through a goodwill claim recently for his 09 FX35, the service manager advised that it is based on four factors: 1) length of ownership, 2) # of new vehicles you have purchased from that brand, 3) how much money was spent at the dealer, 4) whether all services were done at the dealer. Those were 4 biggies that corporate looked at it to judge customer loyalty and were the deciding factors to see if it would be worthwhile to help.


I bought the full A# and B# code services from the dealer, which ran between $122.17 and $181.76. According to my records the only recommended services I had done outside the dealership were some basic A1 oil changes.