What additives are best for timing chain life?
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Found it. This is just fyi.
I cut & pasted it. Hope he doesn't mind ... also being out of context!
From SonofJoe:
The idea that 'wear' in general is primarily dependent on aggregate base oil viscosity (as opposed to VII 'enhanced' viscocity) has been around for yonks. IIRC, some of the industry standard wear test read-across tables are predicated on this principle.
Having said that, I'm not sure if I buy into the theory. If VIIs were to shear away to nothingness, I might agree, but it never does. Even high SSI VIIs (especially OCPs) are, in real life, remarkably robust. You have to remember that OCP VIIs contain a broad, bell-shaped distribution of polymer chains and only the very heaviest shear down.
Also the idea that VII polymer chains are in some way 'squeezed out' of tight gaps, and so cannot influence wear, seems to me fanciful. An expanded polymer chain, with all those surrounding, occuled base oil molecules would be indistinguishable from base oil itself. What next? Do additive molecules like Ashless & ZDDP get "squeezed out', in which case I completely wasted 13 years of my working career!
Talk to oil formulators and whatever Nissan might say, the prevailing view is that timing chain wear is impacted by chain metallurgy & manufacturing way, way more than oil quality. Yes they still have to run & pass the requisite CW tests and yes, they probably claim great results for 'their' oil but in their hearts, do they truly believe this to be the case? I think not...
Another post:
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that however hard you look, you won't find a single professional oil formulator out there that genuinely believes engine oil has anything to do with TGDI timing chain wear. Timing chain wear problems are a function of chain design, manufacture & metallurgy.
The amount of 'soot' you accumulate in oil in a TGDI engine is miniscule when compared to that of a diesel engine. Any modern gasoline oil contains exactly the same componentry as diesel oil to deal with that soot (primarily ashless dispersant).
And treat all that twaddle about TGDI soot being particularly 'hard & abrasive' with a massive pinch of salt . Exactly the same thing was being said about diesel soot several years when Cummins were bleating about their crosshead wear problems.
Yes, timing chain wear is now a specified engine test that has to be passed by oil formulators to get spec approvals but has this actually changed the way oils are formulated? I could be wrong but I'd bet serious money that it hasn't.
I cut & pasted it. Hope he doesn't mind ... also being out of context!
From SonofJoe:
The idea that 'wear' in general is primarily dependent on aggregate base oil viscosity (as opposed to VII 'enhanced' viscocity) has been around for yonks. IIRC, some of the industry standard wear test read-across tables are predicated on this principle.
Having said that, I'm not sure if I buy into the theory. If VIIs were to shear away to nothingness, I might agree, but it never does. Even high SSI VIIs (especially OCPs) are, in real life, remarkably robust. You have to remember that OCP VIIs contain a broad, bell-shaped distribution of polymer chains and only the very heaviest shear down.
Also the idea that VII polymer chains are in some way 'squeezed out' of tight gaps, and so cannot influence wear, seems to me fanciful. An expanded polymer chain, with all those surrounding, occuled base oil molecules would be indistinguishable from base oil itself. What next? Do additive molecules like Ashless & ZDDP get "squeezed out', in which case I completely wasted 13 years of my working career!
Talk to oil formulators and whatever Nissan might say, the prevailing view is that timing chain wear is impacted by chain metallurgy & manufacturing way, way more than oil quality. Yes they still have to run & pass the requisite CW tests and yes, they probably claim great results for 'their' oil but in their hearts, do they truly believe this to be the case? I think not...
Another post:
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that however hard you look, you won't find a single professional oil formulator out there that genuinely believes engine oil has anything to do with TGDI timing chain wear. Timing chain wear problems are a function of chain design, manufacture & metallurgy.
The amount of 'soot' you accumulate in oil in a TGDI engine is miniscule when compared to that of a diesel engine. Any modern gasoline oil contains exactly the same componentry as diesel oil to deal with that soot (primarily ashless dispersant).
And treat all that twaddle about TGDI soot being particularly 'hard & abrasive' with a massive pinch of salt . Exactly the same thing was being said about diesel soot several years when Cummins were bleating about their crosshead wear problems.
Yes, timing chain wear is now a specified engine test that has to be passed by oil formulators to get spec approvals but has this actually changed the way oils are formulated? I could be wrong but I'd bet serious money that it hasn't.
Originally Posted by OilUzer
......timing chain wear is impacted by chain metallurgy & manufacturing way, way more than oil quality
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that however hard you look, you won't find a single professional oil formulator out there that genuinely believes engine oil has anything to do with TGDI timing chain wear. Timing chain wear problems are a function of chain design, manufacture & metallurgy.
The amount of 'soot' you accumulate in oil in a TGDI engine is miniscule when compared to that of a diesel engine. Any modern gasoline oil contains exactly the same componentry as diesel oil to deal with that soot (primarily ashless dispersant).
There is clear and distinct reason some chains fail, and it has to do with particle count and viscosity, common knowledge for as long as I've been around. GM acknowledged this in their updated Oil Life Monitor software. Quote: GM began updating the software in December after noticing warranty claims for worn-out balance chains. The chains link the crankshaft and the balance shaft and make noise when they're worn. The company declined to disclose the number of claims. Product investigators found that recalibrating the oil-life monitor will help the chains last longer. The monitor "tells you when you should change your oil. It might be 5,000 miles.
Interestingly, the test linked above clearly shows chain wear being cut by something like 600% with differences in lubrication.
We clearly know poor maintenance practices kill chains. So it's always good to reinforce good practices. Ones that will help owners avoid unnecessary repairs and expenses.
......timing chain wear is impacted by chain metallurgy & manufacturing way, way more than oil quality
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that however hard you look, you won't find a single professional oil formulator out there that genuinely believes engine oil has anything to do with TGDI timing chain wear. Timing chain wear problems are a function of chain design, manufacture & metallurgy.
The amount of 'soot' you accumulate in oil in a TGDI engine is miniscule when compared to that of a diesel engine. Any modern gasoline oil contains exactly the same componentry as diesel oil to deal with that soot (primarily ashless dispersant).
There is clear and distinct reason some chains fail, and it has to do with particle count and viscosity, common knowledge for as long as I've been around. GM acknowledged this in their updated Oil Life Monitor software. Quote: GM began updating the software in December after noticing warranty claims for worn-out balance chains. The chains link the crankshaft and the balance shaft and make noise when they're worn. The company declined to disclose the number of claims. Product investigators found that recalibrating the oil-life monitor will help the chains last longer. The monitor "tells you when you should change your oil. It might be 5,000 miles.
Interestingly, the test linked above clearly shows chain wear being cut by something like 600% with differences in lubrication.
We clearly know poor maintenance practices kill chains. So it's always good to reinforce good practices. Ones that will help owners avoid unnecessary repairs and expenses.
Last edited:
Originally Posted by PimTac
Originally Posted by ChemLabNL
"It isn't about additives as much as viscosity"
This ^
Generalization: "If your engine parts are going to bounce off each other, then you want a lot of Moly"
Just use a dadgum Dexos2.
A bit of over exaggerating. If you have engine parts bouncing off of each other then you have a poor engine indeed.
Or a poor oil...which was the point.
If you are going to use a 0w20, use OEM Toyota or Mazda and not the OTC ILSAC stuff.
Originally Posted by ChemLabNL
"It isn't about additives as much as viscosity"
This ^
Generalization: "If your engine parts are going to bounce off each other, then you want a lot of Moly"
Just use a dadgum Dexos2.
A bit of over exaggerating. If you have engine parts bouncing off of each other then you have a poor engine indeed.
Or a poor oil...which was the point.
If you are going to use a 0w20, use OEM Toyota or Mazda and not the OTC ILSAC stuff.
Originally Posted by dnewton3
There is no quick answer here. ...
Some designs can last a very long time with very little need for anything special in terms of lubes. (for example ...
My Mazda went its entire 600k+ miles on its original chain and related parts, with no wear symptoms. That was a double-row, 10-mm pitch chain driving only one camshaft, zero idlers, 8 valves, and a distributor. Now I have a single-row, 8-mm pitch chain driving two camshafts and 16 valves, using thinner oil, so probably there's more to worry about on that front.
The claims by several posters that more frequent oil changes that otherwise needed are needed for reasonable chain life in susceptible gasoline engines are puzzling. That may be true, but if so, why---especially given the relatively light soot loading, compared to diesels?
There is no quick answer here. ...
Some designs can last a very long time with very little need for anything special in terms of lubes. (for example ...
My Mazda went its entire 600k+ miles on its original chain and related parts, with no wear symptoms. That was a double-row, 10-mm pitch chain driving only one camshaft, zero idlers, 8 valves, and a distributor. Now I have a single-row, 8-mm pitch chain driving two camshafts and 16 valves, using thinner oil, so probably there's more to worry about on that front.
The claims by several posters that more frequent oil changes that otherwise needed are needed for reasonable chain life in susceptible gasoline engines are puzzling. That may be true, but if so, why---especially given the relatively light soot loading, compared to diesels?
Originally Posted by Cujet
Originally Posted by OilUzer
......timing chain wear is impacted by chain metallurgy & manufacturing way, way more than oil quality
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that however hard you look, you won't find a single professional oil formulator out there that genuinely believes engine oil has anything to do with TGDI timing chain wear. Timing chain wear problems are a function of chain design, manufacture & metallurgy.
The amount of 'soot' you accumulate in oil in a TGDI engine is miniscule when compared to that of a diesel engine. Any modern gasoline oil contains exactly the same componentry as diesel oil to deal with that soot (primarily ashless dispersant).
There is clear and distinct reason some chains fail, and it has to do with particle count and viscosity, common knowledge for as long as I've been around. GM acknowledged this in their updated Oil Life Monitor software. Quote: GM began updating the software in December after noticing warranty claims for worn-out balance chains. The chains link the crankshaft and the balance shaft and make noise when they're worn. The company declined to disclose the number of claims. Product investigators found that recalibrating the oil-life monitor will help the chains last longer. The monitor "tells you when you should change your oil. It might be 5,000 miles.
Interestingly, the test linked above clearly shows chain wear being cut by something like 600% with differences in lubrication.
We clearly know poor maintenance practices kill chains. So it's always good to reinforce good practices. Ones that will help owners avoid unnecessary repairs and expenses.
The grenaded engines was close to 4%. Far from an epidemic. But GM did not want to be known as having equal percentage rates of engine failures to Mercedes.
Originally Posted by OilUzer
......timing chain wear is impacted by chain metallurgy & manufacturing way, way more than oil quality
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that however hard you look, you won't find a single professional oil formulator out there that genuinely believes engine oil has anything to do with TGDI timing chain wear. Timing chain wear problems are a function of chain design, manufacture & metallurgy.
The amount of 'soot' you accumulate in oil in a TGDI engine is miniscule when compared to that of a diesel engine. Any modern gasoline oil contains exactly the same componentry as diesel oil to deal with that soot (primarily ashless dispersant).
There is clear and distinct reason some chains fail, and it has to do with particle count and viscosity, common knowledge for as long as I've been around. GM acknowledged this in their updated Oil Life Monitor software. Quote: GM began updating the software in December after noticing warranty claims for worn-out balance chains. The chains link the crankshaft and the balance shaft and make noise when they're worn. The company declined to disclose the number of claims. Product investigators found that recalibrating the oil-life monitor will help the chains last longer. The monitor "tells you when you should change your oil. It might be 5,000 miles.
Interestingly, the test linked above clearly shows chain wear being cut by something like 600% with differences in lubrication.
We clearly know poor maintenance practices kill chains. So it's always good to reinforce good practices. Ones that will help owners avoid unnecessary repairs and expenses.
The grenaded engines was close to 4%. Far from an epidemic. But GM did not want to be known as having equal percentage rates of engine failures to Mercedes.
There is always the Million Mile Tundra as well, all original. Dealer bulk oil and filters changed regularly. No "Dexos" requirement needed either.
Originally Posted by StevieC
There is always the Million Mile Tundra as well, all original. Dealer bulk oil and filters changed regularly. No "Dexos" requirement needed either.
The Million Mile Tundra I'm familiar with is a V8 model...timing belt, no chain.
There is always the Million Mile Tundra as well, all original. Dealer bulk oil and filters changed regularly. No "Dexos" requirement needed either.
The Million Mile Tundra I'm familiar with is a V8 model...timing belt, no chain.
Originally Posted by crainholio
Originally Posted by StevieC
There is always the Million Mile Tundra as well, all original. Dealer bulk oil and filters changed regularly. No "Dexos" requirement needed either.
The Million Mile Tundra I'm familiar with is a V8 model...timing belt, no chain.
Yup, you are right, my bad... Well all the other components that's still pretty impressive.
Originally Posted by StevieC
There is always the Million Mile Tundra as well, all original. Dealer bulk oil and filters changed regularly. No "Dexos" requirement needed either.
The Million Mile Tundra I'm familiar with is a V8 model...timing belt, no chain.
Yup, you are right, my bad... Well all the other components that's still pretty impressive.
Originally Posted by ChemLabNL
Originally Posted by PimTac
Originally Posted by ChemLabNL
"It isn't about additives as much as viscosity"
This ^
Generalization: "If your engine parts are going to bounce off each other, then you want a lot of Moly"
Just use a dadgum Dexos2.
A bit of over exaggerating. If you have engine parts bouncing off of each other then you have a poor engine indeed.
Or a poor oil...which was the point.
If you are going to use a 0w20, use OEM Toyota or Mazda and not the OTC ILSAC stuff.
Explain your reason.
Originally Posted by PimTac
Originally Posted by ChemLabNL
"It isn't about additives as much as viscosity"
This ^
Generalization: "If your engine parts are going to bounce off each other, then you want a lot of Moly"
Just use a dadgum Dexos2.
A bit of over exaggerating. If you have engine parts bouncing off of each other then you have a poor engine indeed.
Or a poor oil...which was the point.
If you are going to use a 0w20, use OEM Toyota or Mazda and not the OTC ILSAC stuff.
Explain your reason.
Originally Posted by StevieC
Originally Posted by crainholio
Originally Posted by StevieC
There is always the Million Mile Tundra as well, all original. Dealer bulk oil and filters changed regularly. No "Dexos" requirement needed either.
The Million Mile Tundra I'm familiar with is a V8 model...timing belt, no chain.
Yup, you are right, my bad... Well all the other components that's still pretty impressive.
bwahahahaha
Originally Posted by crainholio
Originally Posted by StevieC
There is always the Million Mile Tundra as well, all original. Dealer bulk oil and filters changed regularly. No "Dexos" requirement needed either.
The Million Mile Tundra I'm familiar with is a V8 model...timing belt, no chain.
Yup, you are right, my bad... Well all the other components that's still pretty impressive.
bwahahahaha
4WD
$50 site donor 2024
Originally Posted by StevieC
Originally Posted by crainholio
Originally Posted by StevieC
There is always the Million Mile Tundra as well, all original. Dealer bulk oil and filters changed regularly. No "Dexos" requirement needed either.
The Million Mile Tundra I'm familiar with is a V8 model...timing belt, no chain.
Yup, you are right, my bad... Well all the other components that's still pretty impressive.
So how many miles on that timing belt … on my 2007 Pentastar we had to change at 100k and swapped the water pump while things were pulled off the front …
Originally Posted by crainholio
Originally Posted by StevieC
There is always the Million Mile Tundra as well, all original. Dealer bulk oil and filters changed regularly. No "Dexos" requirement needed either.
The Million Mile Tundra I'm familiar with is a V8 model...timing belt, no chain.
Yup, you are right, my bad... Well all the other components that's still pretty impressive.
So how many miles on that timing belt … on my 2007 Pentastar we had to change at 100k and swapped the water pump while things were pulled off the front …
Originally Posted by 4WD
Originally Posted by StevieC
Originally Posted by crainholio
Originally Posted by StevieC
There is always the Million Mile Tundra as well, all original. Dealer bulk oil and filters changed regularly. No "Dexos" requirement needed either.
The Million Mile Tundra I'm familiar with is a V8 model...timing belt, no chain.
Yup, you are right, my bad... Well all the other components that's still pretty impressive.
So how many miles on that timing belt … on my 2007 Pentastar we had to change at 100k and swapped the water pump while things were pulled off the front …
2007 Pentastar?
Originally Posted by StevieC
Originally Posted by crainholio
Originally Posted by StevieC
There is always the Million Mile Tundra as well, all original. Dealer bulk oil and filters changed regularly. No "Dexos" requirement needed either.
The Million Mile Tundra I'm familiar with is a V8 model...timing belt, no chain.
Yup, you are right, my bad... Well all the other components that's still pretty impressive.
So how many miles on that timing belt … on my 2007 Pentastar we had to change at 100k and swapped the water pump while things were pulled off the front …
2007 Pentastar?
4WD
$50 site donor 2024
LH or whatever? It had a belt
Originally Posted by 4WD
LH or whatever? It had a belt
Thanks. 4.0L maybe.
LH or whatever? It had a belt
Thanks. 4.0L maybe.
4WD
$50 site donor 2024
It's a 3.5L IIRC … passed it on at 107k - son still has it as a 2nd car … and their Charger is a 3.6L Pentastar (2013) … that's the one that ate Magnetec in just 3k (unplanned OCI) …
Originally Posted by 4WD
It's a 3.5L IIRC … passed it on at 107k - son still has it as a 2nd car … and their Charger is a 3.6L Pentastar (2013) … that's the one that ate Magnetec in just 3k (unplanned OCI) …
It's a 3.5L IIRC … passed it on at 107k - son still has it as a 2nd car … and their Charger is a 3.6L Pentastar (2013) … that's the one that ate Magnetec in just 3k (unplanned OCI) …
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