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Chains in industrial applications? Yes, before VFD and AC motors … used to run chains behind V16 CAT engines. The oil bath was filled with gear oil.
What additives are best for timing chain life?
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Originally Posted by badtlc
Originally Posted by Cujet
For over 100 years, industry has been using chains for power transmission, often in seriously heavy duty applications. So chain life was a major factor in operational costs, machine accuracy, down time and so on. Industry studied the problem and found the longest possible chain life required just two things. 1) 30 viscosity oil. 2) extremely clean oil.
Is the W30 the optimal viscosity or is it just the minimum for desired protection? For example, would W40 viscosity protect better than W30?
No you have it all wrong dirty oil protects better ! Chains can stretch , as in VW engine's anything over 4% is dangerous . But the main culprit in vehicle timing chain problems is the chain guides loosing their ability to keep the proper tension on chain .
Originally Posted by Cujet
For over 100 years, industry has been using chains for power transmission, often in seriously heavy duty applications. So chain life was a major factor in operational costs, machine accuracy, down time and so on. Industry studied the problem and found the longest possible chain life required just two things. 1) 30 viscosity oil. 2) extremely clean oil.
Is the W30 the optimal viscosity or is it just the minimum for desired protection? For example, would W40 viscosity protect better than W30?
No you have it all wrong dirty oil protects better ! Chains can stretch , as in VW engine's anything over 4% is dangerous . But the main culprit in vehicle timing chain problems is the chain guides loosing their ability to keep the proper tension on chain .
JHZR2
Staff member
Originally Posted by Cujet
For over 100 years, industry has been using chains for power transmission, often in seriously heavy duty applications. So chain life was a major factor in operational costs, machine accuracy, down time and so on. Industry studied the problem and found the longest possible chain life required just two things. 1) 30 viscosity oil. 2) extremely clean oil.
That's a pretty generic statement though. Yes, its true... but are the applications similar in speed? Meshing? Tension? Temperature of operation? Temperature variations?
Originally Posted by racin4ds
As mentioned in other posts, timing chains have been around forever, the only thing that has changed has been the move towards these ultra thin oils, Common sense always prevails.
And timing chains have NEVER been the panacea that some think they are. MB diesels in the 70s and 80s had indicators and methods to assess wear, so that fuel injection timing and other things could be brought back into spec as the chains lost material. Chains do break. Computer controlled timing just helps to disguise the symptoms of wear and misalignment. If vehicles went back to being truly mechanical as some on here seem to wish for, the issues of chains would be better understood, including from a legacy perspective.
For over 100 years, industry has been using chains for power transmission, often in seriously heavy duty applications. So chain life was a major factor in operational costs, machine accuracy, down time and so on. Industry studied the problem and found the longest possible chain life required just two things. 1) 30 viscosity oil. 2) extremely clean oil.
That's a pretty generic statement though. Yes, its true... but are the applications similar in speed? Meshing? Tension? Temperature of operation? Temperature variations?
Originally Posted by racin4ds
As mentioned in other posts, timing chains have been around forever, the only thing that has changed has been the move towards these ultra thin oils, Common sense always prevails.
And timing chains have NEVER been the panacea that some think they are. MB diesels in the 70s and 80s had indicators and methods to assess wear, so that fuel injection timing and other things could be brought back into spec as the chains lost material. Chains do break. Computer controlled timing just helps to disguise the symptoms of wear and misalignment. If vehicles went back to being truly mechanical as some on here seem to wish for, the issues of chains would be better understood, including from a legacy perspective.
DDP= dialkyldithiophosphate if I remember Mola's lesson's properly
Originally Posted by JHZR2
Originally Posted by Cujet
For over 100 years, industry has been using chains for power transmission, often in seriously heavy duty applications. So chain life was a major factor in operational costs, machine accuracy, down time and so on. Industry studied the problem and found the longest possible chain life required just two things. 1) 30 viscosity oil. 2) extremely clean oil.
That's a pretty generic statement though. Yes, its true... but are the applications similar in speed? Meshing? Tension? Temperature of operation? Temperature variations?
Originally Posted by racin4ds
As mentioned in other posts, timing chains have been around forever, the only thing that has changed has been the move towards these ultra thin oils, Common sense always prevails.
And timing chains have NEVER been the panacea that some think they are. MB diesels in the 70s and 80s had indicators and methods to assess wear, so that fuel injection timing and other things could be brought back into spec as the chains lost material. Chains do break. Computer controlled timing just helps to disguise the symptoms of wear and misalignment. If vehicles went back to being truly mechanical as some on here seem to wish for, the issues of chains would be better understood, including from a legacy perspective.
I'd like to add, over the years timing chains got a lot longer too. That imo presents another set of problems.
Originally Posted by Cujet
For over 100 years, industry has been using chains for power transmission, often in seriously heavy duty applications. So chain life was a major factor in operational costs, machine accuracy, down time and so on. Industry studied the problem and found the longest possible chain life required just two things. 1) 30 viscosity oil. 2) extremely clean oil.
That's a pretty generic statement though. Yes, its true... but are the applications similar in speed? Meshing? Tension? Temperature of operation? Temperature variations?
Originally Posted by racin4ds
As mentioned in other posts, timing chains have been around forever, the only thing that has changed has been the move towards these ultra thin oils, Common sense always prevails.
And timing chains have NEVER been the panacea that some think they are. MB diesels in the 70s and 80s had indicators and methods to assess wear, so that fuel injection timing and other things could be brought back into spec as the chains lost material. Chains do break. Computer controlled timing just helps to disguise the symptoms of wear and misalignment. If vehicles went back to being truly mechanical as some on here seem to wish for, the issues of chains would be better understood, including from a legacy perspective.
I'd like to add, over the years timing chains got a lot longer too. That imo presents another set of problems.
Longer timing chains, direct injection and thin oils.
Run a 30-40wt at a severe interval if direct injected.
Run a 30-40wt at a severe interval if direct injected.
What's ever in M1 oils. With something like 1.5 million miles using their products, not one of my engines has had any lubrication issues, like timing chains. In recent years I have put at least 700K on OHC engines, that have timing chains.
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Originally Posted by 1JZ_E46
There was a good study published on this exact topic sometime last year. Moly was found to have a fairly significant (positive) impact. High amounts of ZDDP appeared to make things worse.
Found it: https://www.stle.org/images/pdf/STL...0Role%20Additive%20Chemistry%20Plays.pdf
What oil on the market has the most moly in it?
There was a good study published on this exact topic sometime last year. Moly was found to have a fairly significant (positive) impact. High amounts of ZDDP appeared to make things worse.
Found it: https://www.stle.org/images/pdf/STL...0Role%20Additive%20Chemistry%20Plays.pdf
What oil on the market has the most moly in it?
Originally Posted by tig1
What's ever in M1 oils. With something like 1.5 million miles using their products, not one of my engines has had any lubrication issues, like timing chains. In recent years I have put at least 700K on OHC engines, that have timing chains.
While I agree with the use of Mobil 1 oils as they are my choice also - but M1 cannot stop a bad timing chain wear issue like the early GM 3.6 motors had. My 2008 CTS had the timing chains replaced at 48k miles. I do 5k mile changes on Mobil 1. Mobil 1 was factory fill. My dad had the same model CTS and he used REDLINE oil changed at the OLM and his went bad at 41k miles. But I am with you on Mobil 1 as I have been a user since around 1985. No lubrication issues ever and quite a few of my cars were over 100k miles and still perfect when sold.
What's ever in M1 oils. With something like 1.5 million miles using their products, not one of my engines has had any lubrication issues, like timing chains. In recent years I have put at least 700K on OHC engines, that have timing chains.
While I agree with the use of Mobil 1 oils as they are my choice also - but M1 cannot stop a bad timing chain wear issue like the early GM 3.6 motors had. My 2008 CTS had the timing chains replaced at 48k miles. I do 5k mile changes on Mobil 1. Mobil 1 was factory fill. My dad had the same model CTS and he used REDLINE oil changed at the OLM and his went bad at 41k miles. But I am with you on Mobil 1 as I have been a user since around 1985. No lubrication issues ever and quite a few of my cars were over 100k miles and still perfect when sold.
How about changing your oil regularly with any synthetic in grade for your vehicle? That's what I do, and I'm at 268k.
Originally Posted by GMBoy
I think the use of a DEXOS approved oil will be the best "off the shelf" answer for timing chains. GM has already done the investigative work and this oil is formulated for timing chains as well as a host of other needs.
Reduced timing chain wear is reason enough to consider a Dexos1 Gen2 synthetic.
I think the use of a DEXOS approved oil will be the best "off the shelf" answer for timing chains. GM has already done the investigative work and this oil is formulated for timing chains as well as a host of other needs.
Reduced timing chain wear is reason enough to consider a Dexos1 Gen2 synthetic.
Originally Posted by Chris Meutsch
How about changing your oil regularly with any synthetic in grade for your vehicle? That's what I do, and I'm at 268k.
Yup . Certain things are out of your control . Quality spec . oil , not 10k OCI. and hope chain tensioners last .
How about changing your oil regularly with any synthetic in grade for your vehicle? That's what I do, and I'm at 268k.
Yup . Certain things are out of your control . Quality spec . oil , not 10k OCI. and hope chain tensioners last .
Originally Posted by badtlc
Is the W30 the optimal viscosity or is it just the minimum for desired protection? For example, would W40 viscosity protect better than W30?
It's my understanding that 30 viscosity was the thin enough to flow well into the links, and viscous enough to prevent metal to metal contact.
Is the W30 the optimal viscosity or is it just the minimum for desired protection? For example, would W40 viscosity protect better than W30?
It's my understanding that 30 viscosity was the thin enough to flow well into the links, and viscous enough to prevent metal to metal contact.
Originally Posted by Cujet
Originally Posted by badtlc
Is the W30 the optimal viscosity or is it just the minimum for desired protection? For example, would W40 viscosity protect better than W30?
It's my understanding that 30 viscosity was the thin enough to flow well into the links, and viscous enough to prevent metal to metal contact.
Sounds like the optimal viscosity, then. Thanks.
Originally Posted by badtlc
Is the W30 the optimal viscosity or is it just the minimum for desired protection? For example, would W40 viscosity protect better than W30?
It's my understanding that 30 viscosity was the thin enough to flow well into the links, and viscous enough to prevent metal to metal contact.
Sounds like the optimal viscosity, then. Thanks.
Or even sae40 oil...most all of them are just a tad heavier than sae30 oil
Originally Posted by Bryanccfshr
Longer timing chains, direct injection and thin oils.
Run a 30-40wt at a severe interval if direct injected.
Don't forget, VVTI adds to the load on the chain. Just use a good quality name brand oil - Mobil 1, Pennzoil, Valvoline, Castrol, Liquid Moly, Idemitsu, Amsoil, etc., the list goes on.
Longer timing chains, direct injection and thin oils.
Run a 30-40wt at a severe interval if direct injected.
Don't forget, VVTI adds to the load on the chain. Just use a good quality name brand oil - Mobil 1, Pennzoil, Valvoline, Castrol, Liquid Moly, Idemitsu, Amsoil, etc., the list goes on.
Originally Posted by 1JZ_E46
There was a good study published on this exact topic sometime last year. Moly was found to have a fairly significant (positive) impact. High amounts of ZDDP appeared to make things worse.
Found it: https://www.stle.org/images/pdf/STL...0Role%20Additive%20Chemistry%20Plays.pdf
This ^^^^ and depending on the model of vehicle if it's known to have chain issues you might want an oil that is Dexos 1 Gen 2 as well. Good news is there is lots of oils that are Dexos 1 Gen 2, and you can find them with Moly as well.
Mobil-1 comes to mind.
There was a good study published on this exact topic sometime last year. Moly was found to have a fairly significant (positive) impact. High amounts of ZDDP appeared to make things worse.
Found it: https://www.stle.org/images/pdf/STL...0Role%20Additive%20Chemistry%20Plays.pdf
This ^^^^ and depending on the model of vehicle if it's known to have chain issues you might want an oil that is Dexos 1 Gen 2 as well. Good news is there is lots of oils that are Dexos 1 Gen 2, and you can find them with Moly as well.
Mobil-1 comes to mind.
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Originally Posted by demarpaint
Originally Posted by JHZR2
Originally Posted by Cujet
For over 100 years, industry has been using chains for power transmission, often in seriously heavy duty applications. So chain life was a major factor in operational costs, machine accuracy, down time and so on. Industry studied the problem and found the longest possible chain life required just two things. 1) 30 viscosity oil. 2) extremely clean oil.
That's a pretty generic statement though. Yes, its true... but are the applications similar in speed? Meshing? Tension? Temperature of operation? Temperature variations?
Originally Posted by racin4ds
As mentioned in other posts, timing chains have been around forever, the only thing that has changed has been the move towards these ultra thin oils, Common sense always prevails.
And timing chains have NEVER been the panacea that some think they are. MB diesels in the 70s and 80s had indicators and methods to assess wear, so that fuel injection timing and other things could be brought back into spec as the chains lost material. Chains do break. Computer controlled timing just helps to disguise the symptoms of wear and misalignment. If vehicles went back to being truly mechanical as some on here seem to wish for, the issues of chains would be better understood, including from a legacy perspective.
I'd like to add, over the years timing chains got a lot longer too. That imo presents another set of problems.
They got longer and the path is more complex. On the old engines with pushrods it was just a short trip up to the camshaft and back.
Originally Posted by JHZR2
Originally Posted by Cujet
For over 100 years, industry has been using chains for power transmission, often in seriously heavy duty applications. So chain life was a major factor in operational costs, machine accuracy, down time and so on. Industry studied the problem and found the longest possible chain life required just two things. 1) 30 viscosity oil. 2) extremely clean oil.
That's a pretty generic statement though. Yes, its true... but are the applications similar in speed? Meshing? Tension? Temperature of operation? Temperature variations?
Originally Posted by racin4ds
As mentioned in other posts, timing chains have been around forever, the only thing that has changed has been the move towards these ultra thin oils, Common sense always prevails.
And timing chains have NEVER been the panacea that some think they are. MB diesels in the 70s and 80s had indicators and methods to assess wear, so that fuel injection timing and other things could be brought back into spec as the chains lost material. Chains do break. Computer controlled timing just helps to disguise the symptoms of wear and misalignment. If vehicles went back to being truly mechanical as some on here seem to wish for, the issues of chains would be better understood, including from a legacy perspective.
I'd like to add, over the years timing chains got a lot longer too. That imo presents another set of problems.
They got longer and the path is more complex. On the old engines with pushrods it was just a short trip up to the camshaft and back.
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