We Are Obsessed But Does It Really Matter

[PimTac]

I think it does matter, reason is...safe bet we can get a new engine to 100-150K miles, but what about the next 100-150K or more.

Also, many engines incorporate numerous tiny oil passages so long-term ownership IMO can benefit from added cleanliness and anything that adds wear and protection against deposits.

My belief is if you do proper maintenance and regular oil changes plus drive the vehicle sensibly you will get many more miles out of a modern engine.

 

[R1jake]

Sure, it's a hobby for many. But does it really make any difference what oil we use? Few are going to extract every mile possible out of their engines.

Many say that architects who design buildings know nothing about what it actually takes to build something. All they know is theory. I believe there are those here who are just this way, theory only.

I like to experiment in most things I decide to pursue. It could be the type of mulch in the garden, the construction of my model radio controlled jets, diving gear, and of course the use of motor oils. This is something I have studied with experiments when in high school a long time ago in a galaxy far far away. I guess it was a friend of my fathers who worked as a chemist in the oil department of Shell. Also, in part, why I studied biochemistry.

So what is there in doing the "usual" with little actual variation. Yes, I obviously like to push the envelope. But how does one move ahead doing just the usual? Take one for the team. For the new year I suggest branching out of the box and doing experiments. There must be something each of us can do where the risk is minimal but still revealing.

I have started by using a 5 grade oil in a Lincoln Navigator that is spec'ed for a 30 grade oil. I feel comfortable because I know that viscosity is temperature dependent. I am not pulling a 10,000lb trailer, on a 5 mile steep uphill grade, in Arizona in the middle of the summer. I have actually seen at least 1 MPG increase in fuel economy and a definite feeling of get-up-and-go. I feel comfortable raving it up when the oil has not reached operating temperature.

Some will say there will be additives that are not activated. They need a higher temperature. But then many say it's only the oil that does the job. It is plenty thick at these reduced temperatures so the MOFT must be fine. It comes back to using the viscosity for your particular application. I have provided evidence that a 20 grade oil can be used in a Ferrari Enzo that specs a 60 grade oil. And with several modes telling the engine is fine. But again, I am not running the car on the track. I am using a 30 grade oil in the 812 Superfast that is spec'ed for a 40 grade oil. Do I hear 20?

ali

 

[Shel_B]

One could simply email JiffyLube and/or VIOC and ask them if they would share the overall number of services they performed last year. Considering they’re the giants of the industry, you could extrapolate that to # of customers/vehicles.

I’d say it’s a safe bet that the remaining oil changes would be split 70/30 in favor of dealerships/indies/local QC places and DIY. I’d say it’s a safe bet that overall the DIY market is probably 10-15% of all vehicles, meaning 27-34 million DIY. Tops. Most people these days can’t be bothered by the time and effort to maintain their vehicles.

First of all, even if I did what you suggest and received some numbers from the companies mentioned, I'd be unable to extrapolate anything. Without additional information about oil changes (numbers, locations, purchases, etc) the Jiffy Lube and VIOC numbers are meaningless. I am not a statistician and have no knowledge of how to extrapolate numbers, especially with such scant information. I was unable to find oil change numbers with a Google search, although I will admit to the search being brief. But from the comments posted here, I'd have thought that information would be easily and readily available.

As for the numbers you propose, I'd suggest you're just making them up based on what you might believe but without any basis of fact. You can propose all the numbers you want, but with the absence of facts, they mean nothing. Show me some facts. Or at least explain how you arrived at your numbers.

 

[ATex7239]

Most things people are “obsessed with” don’t really matter in the grand scheme of life. Fancy clothes, the newest trending show on Netflix, sports, or what have you. It’s all subjective to the person and what they value.

 

[Jetronic]

Sure, it's a hobby for many. But does it really make any difference what oil we use? Few are going to extract every mile possible out of their engines.

Many say that architects who design buildings know nothing about what it actually takes to build something. All they know is theory. I believe there are those here who are just this way, theory only.

I like to experiment in most things I decide to pursue. It could be the type of mulch in the garden, the construction of my model radio controlled jets, diving gear, and of course the use of motor oils. This is something I have studied with experiments when in high school a long time ago in a galaxy far far away. I guess it was a friend of my fathers who worked as a chemist in the oil department of Shell. Also, in part, why I studied biochemistry.

So what is there in doing the "usual" with little actual variation. Yes, I obviously like to push the envelope. But how does one move ahead doing just the usual? Take one for the team. For the new year I suggest branching out of the box and doing experiments. There must be something each of us can do where the risk is minimal but still revealing.

I have started by using a 5 grade oil in a Lincoln Navigator that is spec'ed for a 30 grade oil. I feel comfortable because I know that viscosity is temperature dependent. I am not pulling a 10,000lb trailer, on a 5 mile steep uphill grade, in Arizona in the middle of the summer. I have actually seen at least 1 MPG increase in fuel economy and a definite feeling of get-up-and-go. I feel comfortable raving it up when the oil has not reached operating temperature.

Some will say there will be additives that are not activated. They need a higher temperature. But then many say it's only the oil that does the job. It is plenty thick at these reduced temperatures so the MOFT must be fine. It comes back to using the viscosity for your particular application. I have provided evidence that a 20 grade oil can be used in a Ferrari Enzo that specs a 60 grade oil. And with several modes telling the engine is fine. But again, I am not running the car on the track. I am using a 30 grade oil in the 812 Superfast that is spec'ed for a 40 grade oil. Do I hear 20?

ali

If we take note of the engines that are vaenished or have excessive oil consumption due to stuck rings, it matters to me. The viscosity doesn't matter as much as the tendency for coking and keeping byproducts in suspension does.

 

[AEHaas]

No. The viscosity of blood does not change with the season. When we say that it is "thin" we mean the clotting system (quite complex) is compromised.

I have seen a lot of the same, common statements. What are YOU going to do for us in 2023 to support your claims. Show us some experimentation. Think outside the box.

Again, I am using oil almost as thin as kerosine as a lubricant for my application. I will show evidence that will, hopefully, show it does not damage my engines. You may not think it is enough evidence but it is at least something. There will be those that say, for example, that a used oil analysis that does not show extra wear, is useless. Would that same person say that a UOA showing a bunch of wear with elevated metals is no evidence the oil is not working?

In the meantime I am enjoying better fuel economy, faster acceleration, and early revving without the need to heat up the oil. I may not be into high speeds any more but I love my acceleration. Nobody likes being stuck at a red light. But if I am the first guy in line it will not be all bad, if you know what I mean.

Ali

PS: 'Comment on the statement that chains, cams and bearing failures at a massed level are oil based. It is rarely if ever the case. They are a result of manufacturing issues and very thick oils were at times used as a Band-Aid. But I do not think the problems were solved in the long term without replacing the affected parts with properly engineered parts.

 

[ecotourist]

The viscosity of blood does not change with the season.

Agreed. I've never heard of that either.

 

[slo town]

No. The viscosity of blood does not change with the season. When we say that it is "thin" we mean the clotting system (quite complex) is compromised.

I have seen a lot of the same, common statements. What are YOU going to do for us in 2023 to support your claims. Show us some experimentation. Think outside the box.

Again, I am using oil almost as thin as kerosine as a lubricant for my application. I will show evidence that will, hopefully, show it does not damage my engines. You may not think it is enough evidence but it is at least something. There will be those that say, for example, that a used oil analysis that does not show extra wear, is useless. Would that same person say that a UOA showing a bunch of wear with elevated metals is no evidence the oil is not working?

In the meantime I am enjoying better fuel economy, faster acceleration, and early revving without the need to heat up the oil. I may not be into high speeds any more but I love my acceleration. Nobody likes being stuck at a red light. But if I am the first guy in line it will not be all bad, if you know what I mean.

Ali

PS: 'Comment on the statement that chains, cams and bearing failures at a massed level are oil based. It is rarely if ever the case. They are a result of manufacturing issues and very thick oils were at times used as a Band-Aid. But I do not think the problems were solved in the long term without replacing the affected parts with properly engineered parts.

Dr. Haas:

Please be sure to include the sample size; the number of engines studied, the different makes and COO, turbo versus normally aspirated, etc. - as well as variables such as the oil viscosity used versus the one recommended, OCIs, short tripping versus long highways miles, the climate the vehicle is operated in, the manner in which the vehicle is operated, etc. And of course, let's not forget precise measurements of crankshaft journals, ring gaps, bore polishing, timing chain stretch and guide wear, etc.

As you replied to another poster, your exact quote was; "What are YOU going to do for us in 2023 to support your claims."

Fair enough to ask of YOU, right?

Scott

 

[kschachn]

No. The viscosity of blood does not change with the season. When we say that it is "thin" we mean the clotting system (quite complex) is compromised.

I have seen a lot of the same, common statements. What are YOU going to do for us in 2023 to support your claims. Show us some experimentation. Think outside the box.

Again, I am using oil almost as thin as kerosine as a lubricant for my application. I will show evidence that will, hopefully, show it does not damage my engines. You may not think it is enough evidence but it is at least something. There will be those that say, for example, that a used oil analysis that does not show extra wear, is useless. Would that same person say that a UOA showing a bunch of wear with elevated metals is no evidence the oil is not working?

In the meantime I am enjoying better fuel economy, faster acceleration, and early revving without the need to heat up the oil. I may not be into high speeds any more but I love my acceleration. Nobody likes being stuck at a red light. But if I am the first guy in line it will not be all bad, if you know what I mean.

Ali

PS: 'Comment on the statement that chains, cams and bearing failures at a massed level are oil based. It is rarely if ever the case. They are a result of manufacturing issues and very thick oils were at times used as a Band-Aid. But I do not think the problems were solved in the long term without replacing the affected parts with properly engineered parts.

Stick to being a doctor please.

 

[Soft Cars]

I like to experiment in most things I decide to pursue.

You're a plastic surgeon if I remember correctly.

 

[Imp4]

Sure, it's a hobby for many. But does it really make any difference what oil we use? Few are going to extract every mile possible out of their engines.

Incorrect. As a driving enthusiast, I desire reliable performance. From my tuned F150's with 200K-355K trouble-free miles, to my over-stressed 33 pound boost turbocharged 4 cylinder sports cars, and my modified Jaguar F-Type V6 tuned to 475HP, soon to be 550+.

@Cujet what is incorrect here?!?
By your own definition you are part of the few.

 

[Bill_W]

AEHaas,
I like your input here to give another view. Just curious… could you list the oil used for your vehicles. (ex. Shell Ultra Helix)

 

[xgmad]

It certainly matters to me now, I bought a gdi engine with a turbo (vw gli). Its been 6 months and I only driven 200 miles on it, it is nice!

It doesn't matter in a simple engine to be honest such as my mk6 2.0 naturally aspirated (which sees 7,000 mile oci's with rotella T4 15w40 after I bought it)

 

[HowAboutThis]

So, basically, this entire thread and replies is basically (yet another) "thick vs. thin" thread with a mix of "3-5k changes vs. 7-10k+" changes mixed in? Did I recap without reading more than a couple replies correctly?

 

[AEHaas]

“Please be sure to include the sample size; the number of engines studied, the different makes and COO, turbo versus normally aspirated, etc. - as well as variables such as the oil viscosity used versus the one recommended, OCIs, short tripping versus long highways miles, the climate the vehicle is operated in, the manner in which the vehicle is operated, etc. And of course, let's not forget precise measurements of crankshaft journals, ring gaps, bore polishing, timing chain stretch and guide wear, etc.”

A study of one added to 10M more studies of one is a worthy experiment. 30 years of 20 grade oil in cars and trucks means it is usable. Maybe not for your specific application though. I always stress the oil for the application.

I like and have used Red Line motor oils. I use Motorcraft 5W20 often, even today. But my overall favorite is Renewable Lubricants Inc. I used 20 and 30 grade oils in my Enzo that specs a 60 grade oil. Mind you I am not racing the car. When I sold the car recently (15 years and 7K miles) it was inspected by Ferrari of Tampa Bay. The owner then bought the car from me. So I suspect they thought it was OK. Actually they said it was the best engine they had ever seen in an Enzo.

I do not like Shell Helix Ultra. It always rapidly drops a grade or two in my engines.

Ali

 

[AEHaas]

I think it is important to add that the most common issue with a Ferrari is loss of compression. It is most likely a result of revving the car before the oil gets up to full operating temperature. This is contrary to those who say that as long as it is pumpable it will work fine. This is one of the reasons I use thin oils, I like to rev it up before the oil is hot. Trips are generally short and the oil never gets up to operating temperature.

 

[zray1]

I think it does matter, reason is...safe bet we can get a new engine to 100-150K miles, but what about the next 100-150K or more.

Where do these number come from. Sounds like a race to the bottom of longevity.

Seriously, in my first days fiddling with engines at Uncle Burls repair shop we routinely would consider doing a ring and value job at 250,000 miles, but only if the car was consuming oil. Most cars that we saw would hit 300,000 + miles before they showed enough wear to warrant a top end tear-down. And this was the late 1950’s - early 1960’s.


And now we’re concerned than a car isn’t likely to get much past 200,000 miles ? I don’t get that. Especially with the advances in lubrication products.

Especially durable were the small block Fords of 221 - 260 - & 289 cubic inch displacements. They would normally last 400,000 to 500,000 miles before any internal engine work, and if they didn’t the dealership got an earful. Also very durable we’re the Ford I-6 200 cubic inch models. Excellent lubrication design and bearing placements on all of the above.


Even my somewhat modern factory supercharged 2002 Jaguar XKR shows
good longevity at 180.000 miles with no measurable engine wear. And no measurable oil consumption with OCI’s of 5,000-6,000 miles using Mobil 1 0w-40 or M-1 5w-40.


Barring a poorly designed engine we should be expecting 500,000 miles at a minimum from an engine, not half that.

Z

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Where do these number come from. Sounds like a race to the bottom of longevity.

Seriously, in my first days fiddling with engines at Uncle Burls repair shop we routinely would consider doing a ring and value job at 250,000 miles, but only if the car was consuming oil. Most cars that we saw would hit 300,000 + miles before they showed enough wear to warrant a top end tear-down. And this was the late 1950’s - early 1960’s.


And now we’re concerned than a car isn’t likely to get much past 200,000 miles ? I don’t get that. Especially with the advances in lubrication products.

Especially durable were the small block Fords of 221 - 260 - & 289 cubic inch displacements. They would normally last 400,000 to 500,000 miles before any internal engine work, and if they didn’t the dealership got an earful. Also very durable we’re the Ford I-6 200 cubic inch models. Excellent lubrication design and bearing placements on all of the above.


Even my somewhat modern factory supercharged 2002 Jaguar XKR shows
good longevity at 180.000 miles with no measurable engine wear. And no measurable oil consumption with OCI’s of 5,000-6,000 miles using Mobil 1 0w-40 or M-1 5w-40.


Barring a poorly designed engine we should be expecting 500,000 miles at a minimum from an engine, not half that.

Z

IMO power density (hp/liter of displacement) is much greater today than in past decades.

 

[High Performance Lubricants]

And CAFE wasn’t a thing in the 50’s and 60’s. There is the application of low tension oil rings and hones that are too fine I search of lower friction. LSPI and soot from Gas DI are all things we now deal with as a result of CAFE

 

[Gasbuggy]

What I find to be unfortunate is that these cars we (collectively) over-maintain or at the very least, strive to best maintain, don't exchange hands between forum members very much. This site is missing out by not encouraging users to sell their cars to each other. I'd much prefer to buy a fellow blogger's car.