We Are Obsessed But Does It Really Matter
- Thread starter AEHaas
- Start date
Jackson_Slugger
$50 Site Donor 2022
Like 5W-30 and 10W-30, **** CAFE oils!
Jackson_Slugger
$50 Site Donor 2022
Tastes like eggnog!
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If what you're saying is that thicker grades exacerbate that problem, the issue is that all oils are too thick at startup, even 0W-20. All modern oils with reasonable Winter ratings like 0 and 5 are going to be totally fine though at startup and for those first 20 minutes. Also, consider that when an engine is cold you get more piston to cylinder wall clearance right, so piston slap can cause wear too. There's more to engine wear than just oil weight.
Jackson_Slugger
$50 Site Donor 2022
Literally everyone I know who take their cars to 300,000 and beyond have done it on bulk quickie lube changes. But us BITOG folk are a very unique breed!
AEHaas speaks the truth
Probably true but a lot of people I've known that have had their engines blowed up was a result of a quickie, quacky lube error. I worked in one a long time ago, my shop only ever lost one engine for an insurance claim by putting the wrong (but visually identical, same size) oil filter (I think it was a Puro made VW filter on a GM) and the guy kept going until the engine barely ran with plumes of smoke going out, FTR I wasn't there at the time and this over the course of thousands of oil changes using Purolator-made "Group 7" oil filters and mainly Quaker State, and later Valvoline products. We did a lot of Mecedes, BMW's, and Porches and had a following as well using mainly Mobil 1 as we were lest than a quarter of what the stealerships charged...
Somebody is selling this badboy on Ebay, but the buyer should know this filter is at least 20 years old!:
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Jackson_Slugger
$50 Site Donor 2022
The issue is caustic, acidic vapors building in the crank case at idle and yes thinner oils will remove them slightly faster initially. That's why excessive idling is foolish along with fuel washing the cylinders. But 0W-20 certainly cranks over noticeably easier than even a 5W-30 in very cold, say sub-20F temps. Also, I think the oil reaches optimal op temp and deploys the additive package faster on a xW-20 in cold driving where 5W-30's are more dependent on polymers and take longer to reach optimal protection. Modern oil pumps may mitigate differences somewhat but there is difference in startup flow, just not enough to cause significant wear either way. Just like modern cars have oil-coolers that keep ambient temps under control and there is virtually no discernable differences in wear at temperature even in hot summer climates using modern formulated oils because the cooling system is probably really the most important thing and is often ignored along with transmissions and gearboxes...
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Man that filter even looks old school! There's some things I'll never buy online, and filters are one of them. I'm not a fan of online shopping at all, unless I'm actually looking for something used and antique.Probably true but a lot of people I've known that have had their engines blowed up was a result of a quickie, quacky lube error. I worked in one a long time ago, my shop only ever lost one engine for an insurance claim by putting the wrong (but visually identical, same size) oil filter (I think it was a Puro made VW filter on a GM) and the guy kept going until the engine barely ran with plumes of smoke going out, FTR I wasn't there at the time and this over the course of thousands of oil changes using Purolator-made "Group 7" oil filters and mainly Quaker State, and later Valvoline products. We did a lot of Mecedes, BMW's, and Porches and had a following as well using mainly Mobil 1 as we were lest than a quarter of what the stealerships charged...
Somebody is selling this badboy on Ebay, but the buyer should know this filter is at least 20 years old!:
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
It's not just vapours, it's a combination of several factors:
1. Parts that don't fit properly
2. Excessive start-up enrichment
3. Poor atomization
4. Poor combustion
5. Heat-activated additives that haven't reached activation temperature
That's why calling it "startup wear" is a misnomer. I believe @kschachn touched-on it earlier in the thread, but it's really warm-up wear, and it's a period during which the engine is working toward getting normalized, and while in that state, wear is elevated.
BTW, a heavier oil will be heated more quickly; will generate more heat, due to the shearing action of the pump and bearings. It has nothing to do with the polymers.
If you are on the pump relief, yes, there is a difference in flow, if you aren't, there isn't.
As you noted, the fitment of oil/coolant heat exchangers has been a huge improvement, bringing oil up to temperature much quicker and keeping it where it should be. This also aides in facilitating the use of thinner oils by controlling viscosity through temperature.
Jackson_Slugger
$50 Site Donor 2022
I checked and Puro still makes Group 7 which I assume is the same as their VO line of quickie lube filters. But the color scheme has been updated with blues added...
Jackson_Slugger
$50 Site Donor 2022
I agree it is a combo, but the vapours directly correspond with 3 of those 5 points and has been the main reason that oils in the past turned blackish over time. Thicker oil may heat up a bit faster but doubt there is a noticeable difference between a 0W-20 and a 5W-40 when moving onto the highway. Of course all modern oils have additives to fight acidity, but I think excessive cold idling, where I often see literally drops of water coming out a tailpipe in a car in front of me, is probably the single biggest cause of wear....
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How does that happen?
Jackson_Slugger
$50 Site Donor 2022
The combustion process?
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Oils change colour for a number of different reasons, one of them is carbonaceous materials as a result of incomplete combustion, this was very common with carburetors. At the same time, yes, you have the other nasty byproducts of this process (including the vapours you mentioned) making their way past the rings into the sump.
However, the reason these things are getting by the rings is #1. Ring seal is poor during warm-up (but improves as warm-up takes place) as is piston fitment due to change in shape and size when cold vs at proper operating temp.
So, you take excessive startup enrichment, poor atomization and poor combustion characteristics, all of which produce more nasty byproducts, including the one you mentioned, and then you put it in a cylinder that isn't being properly sealed, you create a recipe for a not-insignificant component of that to end up in the pan. The engine doesn't stop producing acids and other nasties once warm, but their ability to migrate into the oil pan is greatly reduced. On top of that, you have some of your additive AW chemistry that hasn't hit the activation temp yet and this is going to present as an increase in wear.
Amusing anecdote: Our Expedition used to produce pretty clean oil, despite being idled regularly for warm-up in the winter and having a ton of miles on it. You could always see through it on the stick. Both our HEMI's, but the 6.4L in particular, makes the oil very black, very quickly. This isn't due to idling it, but a function of this particular engine architecture (hence why it has dual ignition) that results in carbonaceous material being generated at low engine speeds, something the Modular didn't have an issue with.
DI, which produces soot, has made this issue far, FAR worse, hence we see its "signature" on the rear valances of many cars.
Per the drop of water note, this happens in cold climates during the winter even when the engine is fully up to temperature. If the exhaust system isn't hot enough to keep the water as steam, it will condense. Water is a natural byproduct of combustion, regardless of the engine's state of warm-up (from just starting to fully at operating temp).
wemay
Site Donor 2023
You and me both. I also agree that most folks (other me and me previous Santa Fe Sport 2.0T) i know with very high mileage used whatever bulk or cheapest conventional they could find. Granted, i don't know anyone who's reached 400K. 250 to 300K would be the max.
I'm curious . How many people do you know that had an engine blow up because of a Quick Lube place ? I've never met one myself . I've read a lot of stories on the Internet though ...
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You mean yet another seagull post?
It is heated quicker if the conditions are the same. However, with a thinner oil you can go harder on the accelerator sooner.
In practice heavy may not have an advantage in terms of warm up time.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
The oil is basically generating its own heat through shear and reducing in viscosity because of that fact, there may be some equalization that takes place if we are doing a comparative, as a thinner oil will obviously start out at a lower viscosity but generate less heat and subsequently thin less quickly than a heavier oil that starts out at a higher viscosity but generates more heat and subsequently thins more quickly.
That said, if you have a coolant/oil heat exchanger, like I dare say most modern vehicles do at this juncture, then the oil is brought up to temperature by the coolant; it is thinned quite rapidly due to that heat, and this is far quicker than would happen otherwise.
My Prius has reached 230K using over the counter oils (majority of M1, but I have probably used most of the major brands), but for most of that time, I changed at 1/2 of the OEM interval.
Jackson_Slugger
$50 Site Donor 2022
I only know of 1 at the shop and two owners I worked for. We had minor stuff, I had a transmission case start to crack after doing a gearbox oil change, but I think we replaced it with a used one that was in better condition. But for the most part we had decent checks to make sure nothing went out that was leaking. Back in the day, the main problem was the Fords like the Escort that were infamous for double-gasketing and causing big messes but starting a car and looking underneath saved 99.9% of all issues. I think we tended to be better than most and had a very loyal following, but VIOC came in and I was with them for a while but there was no money in being a manager and the entire shop quit on the same day when my friend, the then manager was fired. I was the assistant and offered the job but their business model was terrible and VIOC has since retracked and is now basically a bankers hours operation. Most of the bigger shops folded, with Mr. Oil Change being the biggest but dissolving after a lawsuit by Castrol. Where I worked changed hands several times but now is back to the original name and partially the old owner. It was a pretty well designed quick lube, but now they do brakes and light automotive that seems to jam up bays and it's not so quickie anymore...
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