Volvo dealer used abrasive wheel to clean engine sump
- Thread starter Astro14
- Start date
The main problem is there is no respect for the items any technician works on these days. That work is taking time from his or her phone time. The other big problem using scotch brite disks is the destroyed machined surfaces and the low areas that are made.
Your like me I don't want anyone working on my stuff, they are not careful enough.
The shop manager that says the filter will catch it, I guess he doesn't know that the oil pump has no filter, and then what about the bypass?
The other problem is how much under the hood paint gets removed by these "experts" when doing the job?
I liked the post about all these glorified youtube experts that in reality are just hammer and pry bar mechanics. You'd never want them working on aircraft parts, or doing precision machine work. You gotta love how some of the experts are scraping the parts across a concrete floor or the work bench, just no respect for the parts, yeah like your one photo of the sanding disk wearing into the outside area.
Your like me I don't want anyone working on my stuff, they are not careful enough.
The shop manager that says the filter will catch it, I guess he doesn't know that the oil pump has no filter, and then what about the bypass?
The other problem is how much under the hood paint gets removed by these "experts" when doing the job?
I liked the post about all these glorified youtube experts that in reality are just hammer and pry bar mechanics. You'd never want them working on aircraft parts, or doing precision machine work. You gotta love how some of the experts are scraping the parts across a concrete floor or the work bench, just no respect for the parts, yeah like your one photo of the sanding disk wearing into the outside area.
Quite honestly he would be better off biting the bullet, and paying for a new engine out of pocket, rather than roll the dice and throw a ton of cash down that rabbit hole. It costs money, A LOT of it, to pursue litigation in a courtroom today. Especially if you're the petitioner and not the respondent.
Just look into what some of these attorneys hourly rates are these days for courtroom time. Not to mention all of the hours preparing the case. Then there is the problem of trying to sue for possible, potential damage. Not provable damage that has actually occurred.
They'll come back with the whole, "We've always done these type of jobs this way, and never had a single customer complain that his engine failed because of it".
Even if he drove it, and it did end up destroying the engine, it would be hard, not to mention expensive, to prove it in a courtroom... That they, (the dealership), were the cause of the failure. The car does have what some would / could argue as, high mileage, (143,000 miles on the clock).
Not to mention the fact that he lives on the East Coast, and this would all happen in Colorado. Even if he won, the overall out of pocket cost would almost certainly be higher, than if he paid for a new engine.
you tend to lose your passion for vehicles once you work on a bunch of them for money, especially for all the crybabies who
want everything done for free. This thread is a case in point..
Service managers are all walks of life. Some are slick talking exec types, some are veteren master techs, some are ex service writers, but mostly people who really have know idea “best practices”.
They would merely go to a tech they trusted or respected in the shop and ask what the normal way the shop does it is.
I know it’s hard to imagine but I would say many especially older than 40 year old mechanics technicians whatever you want to call them do NOT know to not use those discs for cleaning stuff up. It’s what they always have done and saw someone they were mentored by at some point do it.
There are not new publications being handed personally by management about best practices and do not do this.
Guys are just going through the motions of what they have done with success for years, decades etc.
Doesn’t make it right but it’s way more common than one believes and they really don’t know any better. They aren’t up all night reading service procedures
They would merely go to a tech they trusted or respected in the shop and ask what the normal way the shop does it is.
I know it’s hard to imagine but I would say many especially older than 40 year old mechanics technicians whatever you want to call them do NOT know to not use those discs for cleaning stuff up. It’s what they always have done and saw someone they were mentored by at some point do it.
There are not new publications being handed personally by management about best practices and do not do this.
Guys are just going through the motions of what they have done with success for years, decades etc.
Doesn’t make it right but it’s way more common than one believes and they really don’t know any better. They aren’t up all night reading service procedures
I hope you’re not referring to me as a crybaby. I was happy to pay for good work. The total bill was a bit over $3,800 for the work performed, including about $900 for the sump work.
But when I pay that kind of money, at a dealer, I do expect good work.
Not a hack job.
I was an agreeable customer. I watched the technician video. Approved most (not all) of the work. Told them I was no rush for the car. That I would arrange for pick up when done.
They even asked me if I was OK with my work being delayed by a day or two to get another customer back on the road, to which I replied, “No worries, I live out of state, so you can take as long as you like, I won’t need the car until early October”.
I paid within an hour of the invoice being received. Had the car picked up the next day to avoid inconveniencing them with storage.
Look, I was billed $692 in labor for this sump work. Unbolting the part, and putting it back on takes under two hours when I do it. It’s a lot of bolts (30) and I use an electric ratchet, then torque to 13nm with my 1/4” CDI wrench. Careful. Thorough. Two hours. What takes me all afternoon is the cleaning (which I’m pretty certain wasn’t done).
Was it too much to expect reasonable care in that sump work when the technician was billed at 3.5 hours?
I even started the conversation by telling them that I was happy with the troubleshooting and repair of the suspension sensor, and of the rear axle. I paid $1,900 for the latter. $800 for the former.
I work on these things. I am intimately familiar with what the tech did, because I’ve done it my self, last month, on another car, using the Volvo specified data, including sealant, cleaning method, and torque.
Where this “technician” and I differ is in care.
I care. He didn’t.
ls1mike
$50 Site Donor 2025
I hate seeing this. That is why I do most of my own stuff. I usually use a plastic razor blade.
Some of you wondered why I didn't want a frame swap on my old truck. This is why, shortcuts.
I might expect that a small non-reputable shop, but at Volvo? I don't think I have used scotchbrite on any components except the accumulators on 4T65E for the Trans GO shift kit, but that is removed from the transmission and cleaned before reinstall.
I have seen worse metal build up on magnetic drain pans and in filters on a few GM 3800s and they live to drive another day. I would suspect if your oil pressure is still what you are used to it will be ok. Having said that I know it doesn't matter. I would be nervous about it just like you and you will never be able to prove if it was their repair that caused any type of failure in the future. Sucks
Some of you wondered why I didn't want a frame swap on my old truck. This is why, shortcuts.
I might expect that a small non-reputable shop, but at Volvo? I don't think I have used scotchbrite on any components except the accumulators on 4T65E for the Trans GO shift kit, but that is removed from the transmission and cleaned before reinstall.
I have seen worse metal build up on magnetic drain pans and in filters on a few GM 3800s and they live to drive another day. I would suspect if your oil pressure is still what you are used to it will be ok. Having said that I know it doesn't matter. I would be nervous about it just like you and you will never be able to prove if it was their repair that caused any type of failure in the future. Sucks
So sad, but it is true. It’s an unfortunate reality that there’s some very real truth behind “if you want it done right, do it yourself.”
Sorry to hear about it, OP.
I remember replacing the oil pan in my ‘1991 Toyota Previa. I followed the manual’s Instructions to use a plastic razor. It was tedious work removing the RTV, and to be honest I didn’t understand the justification for such tedious and annoying labor, but I see now there was a reason for it.
Probably best thing you can do is leave a detailed and brutal google review. Legal pursuit is not likely to be worth the financial loss. Unless you are extraordinarily wealthy.
Agreed plus you're trying to explain to either a jury of soccer moms and accountants or a judge why a tiny bit of fuzz on a magnet is a big deal.
They're thinking to themselves, "The car still runs fine, so what's the big deal?"
Ultimately you likely have the typical battle of expert witnesses. You get to pay several certified mechanics to show up and testify it really is a big deal, and they bring an equal number saying it's NOT actually a problem.
In the end you settle for two free oil changes and tire rotation.
Sad but true.
Beating a dead subject as its all been said. Yet here I go. I too have seen the damage done by this method. A flat machined surface on my EJ253's aluminum intake manifold rounded drastically at the edges, and deep gouging other places. Yep, I too had the head gaskets done under warrantee by a ""Subaru dealer "south of Boston years ago. They likely use this method on heads as well, although it was obvious mine were machined because a great deal of material was taken before according to the machine shop I used for the next head gaskets I did. The next time new heads will be needed depending...
Mechanics today are mostly paid according to the jobs they complete. Period. Taking all day to do a oil pan gasket will not only get you fired but will starve your family. If the book time says 4 hours then the expectation is it will take less than 4. Living in the rust belt, i have to admit they are tough to get apart. If... I was getting paid for my work I would go hungry and be fired. I take forever. Mostly because I don't have an Oxy - acetylene torch and I rely on WD and hammers. Ok, OK. A Sawzall too. Ok? I said it for all the world to know. A Sawzall. Hack! Yep I use razor blades too but not on the same parts.
Mechanics today are mostly paid according to the jobs they complete. Period. Taking all day to do a oil pan gasket will not only get you fired but will starve your family. If the book time says 4 hours then the expectation is it will take less than 4. Living in the rust belt, i have to admit they are tough to get apart. If... I was getting paid for my work I would go hungry and be fired. I take forever. Mostly because I don't have an Oxy - acetylene torch and I rely on WD and hammers. Ok, OK. A Sawzall too. Ok? I said it for all the world to know. A Sawzall. Hack! Yep I use razor blades too but not on the same parts.
When I was 18-19, I worked in a machine/engine building shop in a big marina. We CONSTANTLY were performing autopsies on engines built by other shops and building them correctly. Most times, it was glass bead.
Agreed. Pretty standard practice at most shops. There are always short cuts.
I agree 100%.... I've been friends with a guy going on 35 years and for about 20 years he was the head mechanic at a local mom and pop garage near here that does lots of local business and has a very good reputation. He said every head gasket job he ever did, he used scrotchbrite and grinding disks to clean up the head and block and after checking for flatness if everything was ok, he put them back together after cleaning the surfaces with rags and brake cleaner.
I asked him if he had ever heard of the problems pads and scotchbrite causes..."Nope, news to me, did a whole (blank) ton of them that way".... If they were warped, off to the machine shop. If they were flat, wipe the contact surfaces clean and put them back together.
Back in my younger days long before I was educated to avoid pads and scotchbrite, I did a couple head gasket jobs doing the same thing, one on a V6 Mustang convertible and the other was a 4 cyl Mercruiser boat engine when I pulled the head to fix a cracked manifold. Both were within spec for flatness so they got put back together as is. The Mustang was on the road a good number of years after that without issue until my brother in law traded it for a newer one. The boat engine was fine for the 6-7 years I used it after that and then I sold it to my friend about 10 years ago who only just recently got rid of it but it was fine the entire time he had it.
Maybe I was lucky or did an adequate job cleaning them up before reassembly. Never checked the bearings or tore apart the oil filters after doing either of those, so perhaps there was a lot of damage going on I simply didnt know about. Awful lot of debris on that magnetic plug and in the oil filter pictures posted above, so I'm not sure that kind of luck is going on here. Could be a costly and difficult battle to prove though if it comes down to that.
This is a very sad thread. If it were my car, I'd be livid. Curious to see what the UOA's will look like. Also if there are any screens in the turbo oil lines I'd be digging into those too, you really dont want those plugged up.
My neighbor Lets call him Joe, has a 90,000 GMC Denali pick up. He loves it but told me an interesting story.
Within a short time after Joe took delivery of the vehicle, it developed a lifter tap and after futile attempts to quite he thing the dealer finally decided that it needed the lifters replaced at some 11,000 miles. His Response was "I just spent 90,000 Dollars on this truck I want a new engine". The Shop called and said it was done. He quickly asked if they replaced the engine. To his disappointment they did not. GMC Only approved the new lifters. When Joe went to the Dealer and spoke with the service manager, he reiterated his original objection. When they refuse Joe stated he would be back to hold a picket sign out front tomorrow. They thought he was joking. However he wasn't. After seeing him hanging out in front of the dealership a few hours and talking with numerous people about his experience, while watching person after person turn around and leave they decided he was serous. At some point a tall man in a fancy suit came walking out and met him on the sidewalk. He asked Joe how he could make it right, he offered and extended warrantee, cash settlement. My neighbor said you know what I want. The man asked Joe to please come back into the service department and they will get him a ETA on a new engine. Within a month Joe had the new engine installed. My point, sometimes we have to be taken seriously. Spend days in court or spend a few dollars and picket your point. a few hours can sour the ideals of people. Especially if you mention the local paper or tv news channel. If it doesn't work out you have a choice. Just a few sales would be the cost of a new engine. It would cost the dealer nothing to cover a warrantee for 50,000 miles say. or $6.000 for an engine job. It would cost twice that in court. If they are so certain no harm was done (which we ALL know there was some) an extended warrantee is their best option. IMO
Within a short time after Joe took delivery of the vehicle, it developed a lifter tap and after futile attempts to quite he thing the dealer finally decided that it needed the lifters replaced at some 11,000 miles. His Response was "I just spent 90,000 Dollars on this truck I want a new engine". The Shop called and said it was done. He quickly asked if they replaced the engine. To his disappointment they did not. GMC Only approved the new lifters. When Joe went to the Dealer and spoke with the service manager, he reiterated his original objection. When they refuse Joe stated he would be back to hold a picket sign out front tomorrow. They thought he was joking. However he wasn't. After seeing him hanging out in front of the dealership a few hours and talking with numerous people about his experience, while watching person after person turn around and leave they decided he was serous. At some point a tall man in a fancy suit came walking out and met him on the sidewalk. He asked Joe how he could make it right, he offered and extended warrantee, cash settlement. My neighbor said you know what I want. The man asked Joe to please come back into the service department and they will get him a ETA on a new engine. Within a month Joe had the new engine installed. My point, sometimes we have to be taken seriously. Spend days in court or spend a few dollars and picket your point. a few hours can sour the ideals of people. Especially if you mention the local paper or tv news channel. If it doesn't work out you have a choice. Just a few sales would be the cost of a new engine. It would cost the dealer nothing to cover a warrantee for 50,000 miles say. or $6.000 for an engine job. It would cost twice that in court. If they are so certain no harm was done (which we ALL know there was some) an extended warrantee is their best option. IMO
not you in particular, but the motoring public in general.. for $3800 clams, they should have gold plated that oil pan.
ls1mike
$50 Site Donor 2025
I think the key is how clean you get it. I will tell you I like using the brake clean and have never had a problem when I do use it.
exactly... if the bonehead who did the original work in the original post didn't clean the oil pan when he was done, its a different problems than someone using a scotchbrite pad to clean some surfaces and was clean about how they do the job.. see mechanics working on stuff in filthy environments still exercising due caution by covering the device in question with rags, and cleaning it well before re assembly...
Most manufacturers warn about the use of abrasives for cleaning, but emphasis is paid on if a person does use abrasives they need to be careful and clean up after them selves.. not that they can't use the stuff..
I think the photo of the drain plug photo after 225 miles (see the first post in the thread) shows just how well this “technician” cleaned everything...
he didn't... and you already noted it and hopefully the oil filter and an oil change took care of it..
I'd be willing to say if there is a premature failure of that engine you have a case to make in court
but there really isn't much you can do about it
unless you get that premature failure..
It was just over $900 for the pan work. High, but as I said, if they had actually done a good job…
They also replaced a rear axle (torn CV boot, not replaceable), diagnosed and repaired a suspension fault (bad accelerometer), replaced the fuel filter, and repaired a fuel leak. I’m happy with that work.
Also, in the interest of fairness, they paid for the tow. Since the car was in an underground hotel garage, it required both a low profile tow vehicle to get it out, and a flat bed to get it to the dealer, since it is AWD. All on a Saturday.
That tow was over $450.
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