Volvo dealer used abrasive wheel to clean engine sump

[wrcsixeight]

Running the pan through parts washer would take time, and effort.

The abrasive disks were used to save time, and minimize effort expended.

They shiv not one git whether such actions contribute to the premature demise of the engine.

Misanthropic mood increasing






Job security, they figure, if they can even think that far ahead.

 

[Astro14]

No filter will catch those particles.

Agreed. Question is, will the three drain and fills remove those particles that the filter missed?

Sucks to hear

Might want to scope the cylinder walls to see if anything was rubbing?

I would scope the whole block if it was at home… but the whole reason I took it there is that the car is 2,000 from my shop. Believe me when I tell you that I wish I had declined the work. A little oil leak fixed, but potential engine damage? Not a very good trade.

 

[2strokeNorthstar]

This could have been a Rainman Ray job. Work like this is more common than you want to know. Time is money and mechanics aren't paid the greatest. Best of luck but the law requires you to have a monetary damage. You can't sue for a potential problem. Maybe the dealer will do some good faith work if you're lucky. Dealers aren't exactly getting rich lately though.

 

[bdcardinal]

I miss my S60R. This is so infuriating especially since there are products like metal cleaning wipes that work so much better.

 

[eljefino]

Because we know they did the pan with the disk and we know they didn't put it in the parts washer. The dealer is going to say they parts washered the pan all day. I say the filter media with all the bits in it tells the real story.

Most likely the tech tilted the pan up, gunned it with brake cleaner for 5 seconds, and wiped it with a rag, getting 80% of the junk. His attention was on the sealing surface, the sump part of the pan was "overspray" and wiped, poorly.

 

[Trav]

Agreed. Question is, will the three drain and fills remove those particles that the filter missed?


I would scope the whole block if it was at home… but the whole reason I took it there is that the car is 2,000 from my shop. Believe me when I tell you that I wish I had declined the work. A little oil leak fixed, but potential engine damage? Not a very good trade.

I believe it will get most of the particles out, the damage is done as soon as the oil circulated. Depending on how well the moron cleaned up with brake cleaner it may be a lot or a little. The only way you can know is to pull the pan and a coupe of rod and main caps for a look see. The particles on the magnet are not from the bearings or aluminum though, those are mostly from the cams and cylinder walls, you could inspect the cam.

 

[97K15004WD]

.......The other possibility is even worse, they know how the oiling system works and don't care....

If they are factory trained techs, they know this and willfully ignored their training - meaning they don't care.

And the service manager condones it with "it's normal" because he's probably paid bonus based on the tech's throughput.

A buddy of mine a while back was a service manager at a Ford dealership - and he got bonus payments based on technician's "productivity".

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

If they are factory trained techs, they know this and willfully ignored their training - meaning they don't care.

And the service manager condones it with "it's normal" because he's probably paid bonus based on the tech's throughput.

Yep. Flat rate or hourly, you still have to care.

 

[thescreensavers]

Astro14, I would at the very least write a letter to Volvo's USA headquarters, Office of the President (or whatever they call the head honcho) detailing your experience and your conversation with the Service Manager and Shop Foreman, and your dissatisfaction in how you and your vehicle were treated

100% this, you bring your car to the dealership for correctly trained techs to work on your car, since they sure are charging for it...

The manager is a pro deflector and didn't really take any responsibility for the situation at the very least they'd should refund the service and retrained the technician. Though looks like the manager needs training too...

Sending a letter to corporate is likely one of your best moves here as it's documented what they did is mechanical negligence.

 

[dlundblad]

The guy that did that is a butcher but that seems to be par for the course these days, you wouldn't believe some of the stuff I have seen.
I use roloc or bristle disc on some things but never on an engine or even around an engine, the abrasives from either one will pass any filter oil or air and will do damage. I hope you get some satisfaction, this really sucks and you paid for it.
From what I see there are very few good mechanics left, the ones that are around are usually not in a dealership working flat rate.

I was going to use an abrasive wheel on my truck when I did the LIM gasket job on my truck ~7 years ago.

You told me not to. Lol

 

[Kurtatron]

Agreed. Question is, will the three drain and fills remove those particles that the filter missed?


I would scope the whole block if it was at home… but the whole reason I took it there is that the car is 2,000 from my shop. Believe me when I tell you that I wish I had declined the work. A little oil leak fixed, but potential engine damage? Not a very good trade.

I am genuinely confused by this. Oil filters are designed to capture 25 micrometers. I don’t understand why the filter won’t catch abrasives. If you can see it, the filter will catch it.

Are the abrasives even smaller than 25 microns? I am trying to understand the facts how this situation will cause contamination into the lubrication system.

 

[KrisZ]

The use of an abrasive wheel is quite alluring on the surface, but all the extra effort that needs to be taken to mask the internals and clean everything afterwards is not worth it.
I rather do it by hand.

 

[Astro14]

I am genuinely confused by this. Oil filters are designed to capture 25 micrometers. I don’t understand why the filter won’t catch abrasives. If you can see it, the filter will catch it.

Are the abrasives even smaller than 25 microns? I am trying to understand the facts how this situation will cause contamination into the lubrication system.

First, much of the stuff was larger than that.

Next, abrasives typically break under use, becoming smaller, and finer, grains. It’s true for sandpaper grains, it’s true in woodworking, it’s true here where the embedded aluminum oxide from the 3M scotchbrite pads was circulating in the engine.

Look at the drain plug. That pile of shavings is from 225 miles of operation. That is far from normal for this, or any other, engine to get that much iron debris in 225 miles. Clearly, excessive wear was occurring.

The real concern I have is this: previous analysis by General Motors and others on engine damage when using scotch, Brite shows that the abrasive particles embed themselves in the softer bearing material. Now what you have is a situation much like sandpaper, a soft substrate, like paper, or cloth, with an embedded hard abrasive capable of wearing down anything against which it’s moving.

Embedded particles in the bearing material are going to continue to wear against the hard steel of the journal. Turbo chargers are particularly susceptible to this because of the small size of the bearing and the extreme RPM at which they operate.

Without a complete engine teardown, there’s really no way for me to tell the extent of the damage.

But make no mistake, there is damage. The debris on the drain plug proves it. That metal came from somewhere, and all that metal came in just a few hundred miles.

The other question that I cannot know, is, did the two drains and refill of oil remove most of the particles smaller than 25 µm that were suspended in the oil. I mean, that was the intent of the two drain and fills, and the upcoming drain and fill, is to remove any particles too small for the filter.

The final question, and again, I can’t know this, is, are there any aluminum oxide particles embedded in bearings like the turbo charger because the oil system operated and bypass mode on initial start up?

There is a reason every manufacturer prohibits the use of abrasive materials on open engines. If the filter magically removed all of it, then the technician would be right, and the manufacturers would not need to prohibit their use.

 

[MSCH]

lets face facts, no one with a lick of sense would want to be a mechanic at a car dealership... flat rate, tight warranty labor rates, supply your own tools, spend your life bent over... get second guessed by everyone.... so nah... so the dealer will train the guy that used to wash cars to change oil, and if the guy who used to wash cars and now changes oil can do that without too many problems, they try to turn him into a technician... ,

just the way it is.

 

[Kurtatron]

First, much of the stuff was larger than that.

Next, abrasives typically break under use, becoming smaller, and finer, grains. It’s true for sandpaper grains, it’s true in woodworking, it’s true here where the embedded aluminum oxide from the 3M scotchbrite pads was circulating in the engine.

Look at the drain plug. That pile of shavings is from 225 miles of operation. That is far from normal for this, or any other, engine to get that much iron debris in 225 miles. Clearly, excessive wear was occurring.

The real concern I have is this: previous analysis by General Motors and others on engine damage when using scotch, Brite shows that the abrasive particles embed themselves in the softer bearing material. Now what you have is a situation much like sandpaper, a soft substrate, like paper, or cloth, with an embedded hard abrasive capable of wearing down anything against which it’s moving.

Embedded particles in the bearing material are going to continue to wear against the hard steel of the journal. Turbo chargers are particularly susceptible to this because of the small size of the bearing and the extreme RPM at which they operate.

Without a complete engine teardown, there’s really no way for me to tell the extent of the damage.

But make no mistake, there is damage. The debris on the drain plug proves it. That metal came from somewhere, and all that metal came in just a few hundred miles.

The other question that I cannot know, is, did the two drains and refill of oil remove most of the particles smaller than 25 µm that were suspended in the oil. I mean, that was the intent of the two drain and fills, and the upcoming drain and fill, is to remove any particles too small for the filter.

The final question, and again, I can’t know this, is, are there any aluminum oxide particles embedded in bearings like the turbo charger because the oil system operated and bypass mode on initial start up?

There is a reason every manufacturer prohibits the use of abrasive materials on open engines. If the filter magically removed all of it, then the technician would be right, and the manufacturers would not need to prohibit their use.

I watched the video that Michael. Oil filter bypass makes sense, allowing contaminant infiltration.

 

[2heeldrive]

Using an abrasive disk on an oil pan is fine as long as you run it through the parts washer...

Do parts washers have a filter that will keep the abrasive particles from recirculating?

 

[MSCH]

Do parts washers have a filter that will keep the abrasive particles from recirculating?

the Safetly Kleen version we used at my old job sort of have a filter... but realistically the answer is no..

anyways, most mokanics blow things off with air pressure as well as wipe off surfaces..

 

[oil pan 4]

Do parts washers have a filter that will keep the abrasive particles from recirculating?

Depends on the parts washer. The harbor freight one probably does not have a filter any professional one will have some kind of filter. But it's solvent so anything heavier than carbon is immediately going to drop to the bottom. All the iron, straight to the bottom like an anchor, most of the silica grinder dust will be there soon enough. Could always hit it with brake cleaner to flush away any residuals.

 

[oil pan 4]

I am genuinely confused by this. Oil filters are designed to capture 25 micrometers. I don’t understand why the filter won’t catch abrasives. If you can see it, the filter will catch it.

Are the abrasives even smaller than 25 microns? I am trying to understand the facts how this situation will cause contamination into the lubrication system.

Yes. If fire up the grinder and use it with my cheap little pm2.5 meter down wind it will pickup grinder dust.
On a cold start the oil filter maybe bypassing oil.
The filters have ratings for different size particles, a decent paper filter will stop something like 90% of 2 micron, 95% of 10 micron particles and 99.9% of 27 micron. So as long as the oil filter didn't bypass when the engine cold started the filter would have caught pretty much everything. But we don't know.

 

[Astro14]

Yes. If fire up the grinder and use it with my cheap little pm2.5 meter down wind it will pickup grinder dust.
On a cold start the oil filter maybe bypassing oil.
The filters have ratings for different size particles, a decent paper filter will stop something like 90% of 2 micron, 95% of 10 micron particles and 99.9% of 27 micron. So as long as the oil filter didn't bypass when the engine cold started the filter would have caught pretty much everything. But we don't know.

I’m not one who handles uncertainty very well….