Valvoline Extended Protection Full Synthetic vs. Mobil 1 Extended Performance

That is exactly what is happening. And it's also the reason why Honda hasn't fixed it. And why they're running around their service centers telling everyone, "it's normal", when it's anything but.

Honda is stuck with this dog with fleas, because if they tightened up the piston ring clearances to fix it, (which is what is required), it would then blow them out of the water with CAFE, because the mileage would drop enough, (due to increasing the rotational resistance of the engine itself), to where they would lose CAFE credits. So they are living with it..... Or to put it more accurately, they're telling their customers they have to live with it.

I thought the DI fuel dilution issue was largely caused by evaporation of the fuel charge in the combustion chamber rather than the intake manifold. With a cold engine this causes fuel to condense on cylinder walls thus promoting fuel dilution. Once the fuel is in the oil it takes time and temperature to burn it off, so short-tripping simply compounds the issue.

So, rather than fiddle with piston ring tension, a more elegant solution is dual port/DI injection that gives the best of both worlds as port is used for start, idle and low power situations and DI the rest.

And if piston ring tension/clearances were the issue, engines wouldn’t be “making” oil, they would be consuming it. Or, if we want to be more paranoid than usual, any DI engine that shows no oil consumption is just fooling us: it burning just enough oil to offset incoming fuel.
 
How does dual injection prevent blowby? I would think that blow by has more to do with piston ring clearances.
What do you mean specifically by ring clearances, Iggy?

Rings are tensioned against the bore statically and will have greater tension dynamically depending on engine load due to gas and oil assist.
I haven't looked at a Honda or Mazda shop manual lately,
but as far as I have heard throughout the last decade, they are moving to tighter clearances and thinner rings.
e.g.: 1mm vs. 1/16" which might have a land clearance of less than .001 in.. Next you have to consider circumferential ring end gaps which absolutely contribute to leak down.
I am unaware of any manufacturers running zero gap second ring scrapers in commercial engines, that doesn't mean they are not - just haven't read about it since I rebuild vintage engines popular a more than a 1/2 century ago.

Then you have slipper skirt pistons which can be prone to rocking, the you have long stroke small bore which
leads to higher piston speed down the hole, and also having to wipe an extra inch of bore oil on the intake stroke.

Travis is working on Asian stuff maybe he can give some recent examples.

- Ken
 
How does dual injection prevent blowby? I would think that blow by has more to do with piston ring clearances.
There are a few things in play here:
1. Direct injection does a poorer job of atomizing the fuel, so you end up with more liquid fuel in the chamber, particularly on the walls, which allows it to go by the rings. During warm-up, ring seal (and piston fitment) is poorer.
2. Enrichment is used for knock control and cat light-off during start-up and warm-up. Mix this with #1 and you end up making the problem larger
3. Fuel washing the oil off the cylinder walls negatively impacts ring seal. This combines with #1 and #2.
4. Small, high efficiency engines like the Honda 1.5L are difficult to to get up to temperature. This results in them running in warm-up (higher enrichment) mode longer. The lower wall temps and excessive enrichment coupled with fuel wash on the cylinder wall combines to result in a significant amount of fuel making its way by the ring pack and into the sump.

So, when short-tripped, particularly in cold climates, these issues combine to produce the rising sump levels that we are observing with this engine family.

Port injection results in better atomization and far less fuel wash of the cylinder walls, which aides in improving ring seal. It is also unable to provide the same level of anti-knock/anti-detonation control as manipulating the timing of the DI injection charge, so ignition timing will be used instead and boost pressure may be limited to prevent knock while operating as port injected. Ultimately, this reduces the propensity toward dilution over straight DI. Note that it does not eliminate it, only reduces it.

The expectation was that fuel dilution would evaporate when the engines got up to temperature. Clearly, the assumptions made regarding how these engines would be operated were flawed, which is how the issue became so prevalent. Even the re-flash performed to address the issue hasn't eliminated it, because ultimately, if these engines are not getting up to, and staying at, full operating temperature for long enough to flash the fuel off, then the sump will remain diluted, and will continue to be diluted.
 
Valvoline for the 100% synthetic base oil and high moly.
But I don't think choose one over another will result in significant improvement. Why not try both oil to see which one your vehicle prefer?
Frequent oil change is way more important than oil quality.
You have that backwards. The Mobil product would have a higher percentage of PAO in the base oil blend (the "100% synthetic" claim). And no, oil selection won't make a difference, nor will base oil composition, the problem is mechanical.
 
What do you mean specifically by ring clearances, Iggy?

Rings are tensioned against the bore statically and will have greater tension dynamically depending on engine load due to gas and oil assist.
I haven't looked at a Honda or Mazda shop manual lately,
but as far as I have heard throughout the last decade, they are moving to tighter clearances and thinner rings.
e.g.: 1mm vs. 1/16" which might have a land clearance of less than .001 in.. Next you have to consider circumferential ring end gaps which absolutely contribute to leak down.
I am unaware of any manufacturers running zero gap second ring scrapers in commercial engines, that doesn't mean they are not - just haven't read about it since I rebuild vintage engines popular a more than a 1/2 century ago.

Then you have slipper skirt pistons which can be prone to rocking, the you have long stroke small bore which
leads to higher piston speed down the hole, and also having to wipe an extra inch of bore oil on the intake stroke.

Travis is working on Asian stuff maybe he can give some recent examples.

- Ken


I saw a YT presentation by Dave Coleman showing one of the rings Mazda is using. It was very thin and had a bi-directional action as well.

The argument about loose rings doesn’t hold up in my opinion. They can only have so much movement otherwise we would be seeing a lot of broken rings out there.

All of this points to using good quality oil.
 
There are a few things in play here:
1. Direct injection does a poorer job of atomizing the fuel, so you end up with more liquid fuel in the chamber, particularly on the walls, which allows it to go by the rings. During warm-up, ring seal (and piston fitment) is poorer.
2. Enrichment is used for knock control and cat light-off during start-up and warm-up. Mix this with #1 and you end up making the problem larger ...

Do you have a paper or discussion pointing to your point #1 ?

That seems counter-intuitive given the extremely high injection pressure
and the fact that the droplets are not travelling around the valve seat.

Also, is not the injection timing in the most normal mode near the top of the stroke where there would be
minimal exposed cylinder wall and fuel introduced into the compressed intake charge will be heated?

There is obviously a problem in some designs and implementation,though
I do not recall any issue with my VW Jetta 1.4 tsi, but I did not have the oil sample tested.

But, I did run a thicker sump by adding a litre of 0W40 to the 508 with no undue racket through 6000 miles.

- I have to leave for Lunch but I will be back tomorrow - Ken
 
What do you mean specifically by ring clearances, Iggy?

Rings are tensioned against the bore statically and will have greater tension dynamically depending on engine load due to gas and oil assist.
I haven't looked at a Honda or Mazda shop manual lately,
but as far as I have heard throughout the last decade, they are moving to tighter clearances and thinner rings.
e.g.: 1mm vs. 1/16" which might have a land clearance of less than .001 in.. Next you have to consider circumferential ring end gaps which absolutely contribute to leak down.
I am unaware of any manufacturers running zero gap second ring scrapers in commercial engines, that doesn't mean they are not - just haven't read about it since I rebuild vintage engines popular a more than a 1/2 century ago.

Then you have slipper skirt pistons which can be prone to rocking, the you have long stroke small bore which
leads to higher piston speed down the hole, and also having to wipe an extra inch of bore oil on the intake stroke.

Travis is working on Asian stuff maybe he can give some recent examples.

- Ken

 
Do you have a paper or discussion pointing to your point #1 ?

That seems counter-intuitive given the extremely high injection pressure
and the fact that the droplets are not travelling around the valve seat.
The valve seat has nothing to do with it. On a port-injected engine, the fuel is introduced into a moving air mass at reasonably low pressure but a high degree of atomization, this promotes a very even and homogenous blend of air/fuel. With the direct injection charge, the fuel is sprayed, at high pressure, at the top of the piston, where it deflects and ends up on the cylinder walls. If those walls are cold, this results in droplet formation and subsequently liquid fuel on the walls, which of course washes-down the oil, and makes its way into the sump.

One reference from AMSOIL:
AMSOIL said:
One side effect, however, is fuel dilution. As fuel is sprayed into the combustion chamber, it can wash past the rings and down the cylinder walls, into the oil sump.

Another from Engine Builder Mag:
From what he has learned through dyno experiences, Dickmeyer says liquid fuel in the cylinder is damaging. Many people will mistakenly say that you’re looking for where the fuel vaporizes, but that’s not really true either because vapor is a liquid turning into gas. What you want, he says, is atomization.

“You want small droplets of fuel to intertwine with air,” he says. “What happens with the direct injection engine is you’re squirting that liquid fuel into the cylinder, it gets on the cylinder walls and absorbs into the oil. What happens during the combustion event is the oil that is on the cylinder walls contains gasoline so it ignites and it burns off. That’s why a lot of direct injection engines are experiencing significant oil consumption and flash burns in the cylinder.”
Of course at low temperatures, it doesn't burn off, and just ends up in the sump.

And the SAE:
It was found in the tests that the high-speed-end torque for the TGDI engine had a significant influence on fuel dilution: longer injection durations resulted in impingement of large liquid fuel drops on the piston top, leading to a considerable level of fuel dilution. Test results indicated that the higher the torque at the rated-power, the greater the level of fuel dilution. In a cyclic-load engine test simulating the customer drives of a target vehicle powered by the engine, the maximum level for fuel dilution was found to be up to 9%, causing significant drop in the oil viscosity. The causes for fuel dilution and impacts of it on the oil consumption and formation of carbon deports on the piston ring area, and methods for mitigating impacts of fuel dilution are discussed in the paper.
1649434111348.png


SAE again:
In addition to these factors, fuel injection timing is another factor that increases fuel dilution in direct-injection engines.
Also, is not the injection timing in the most normal mode near the top of the stroke where there would be
minimal exposed cylinder wall and fuel introduced into the compressed intake charge will be heated?
See above references. With a port injected engine, the fuel is always introduced during the intake stroke, because it is part of the intake charge. With direct injection, it can be introduced at that time, or any other time prior to the firing of the spark plug. This is manipulated, along with duration (enrichment) to prevent knock and detonation because, as you may recall, TGDI engines run much higher static compression ratios, along with boost, than their port-injected siblings, and this is made possible by this manipulation of injection timing.
There is obviously a problem in some designs and implementation,though
I do not recall any issue with my VW Jetta 1.4 tsi, but I did not have the oil sample tested.

But, I did run a thicker sump by adding a litre of 0W40 to the 508 with no undue racket through 6000 miles.

- I have to leave for Lunch but I will be back tomorrow - Ken
Unless you sampled the oil and sent it to Polaris/OAI, you'd not be aware of how much fuel was making its way into the oil. That said, certain designs are far more prone to issues than others. The Honda 1.5L seems particularly bad, the BMW B58 seems particularly good.
 
“With today’s ultra tight clearances, things just jam up when you change your oil too late,” he says. “There are manufacturers out there recommending 10,000 to 12,000-mile oil intervals on a direct injection engine. And you get TV commercials saying change your oil once a year.”

Chemically, oil after a year in a vehicle may have lubricant value, but the big problem is the dirt that’s in suspension that sticks to the oil. When you’re changing your oil you’re flushing out the dirt from the crankcase".


Yet another reason for frequent oil and filter changes. Long before what's, "manufacturer recommended".
 
At some point it could be an issue, hard to get around the physics. An adequate MOFT is ultimately what prevents wear and as the oil is progressively diluted with a low-viscosity fluid such as gasoline you can't avoid thinning the oil. As is always the case a UOA isn't necessarily going to show a problem but that doesn't mean there can't be one. With significant fuel dilution I wouldn't want to run an oil that has a marginal HT/HS to begin with, but maybe that's just me.
I don't believe it's just you ... ;)
 
“With today’s ultra tight clearances, things just jam up when you change your oil too late,” he says. “There are manufacturers out there recommending 10,000 to 12,000-mile oil intervals on a direct injection engine. And you get TV commercials saying change your oil once a year.”

Chemically, oil after a year in a vehicle may have lubricant value, but the big problem is the dirt that’s in suspension that sticks to the oil. When you’re changing your oil you’re flushing out the dirt from the crankcase".


Yet another reason for frequent oil and filter changes. Long before what's, "manufacturer recommended".
But if this was an issue you’d see these same manufacturers in junkyards and with blown engines and you just really don’t, if long OCIs are a recipe for disaster how do so many European manufacturers still exist? Don’t most of them recommend long OCIs? For some reason we’ve misidentified fuel dilution and long OCIs for the boogieman, if fuel dilution and long OCIs were so terrible then my 2.0 Ecoboost must have been built different because at 136k miles I’m sure by now I’d have had catastrophic consequences
 
But if this was an issue you’d see these same manufacturers in junkyards and with blown engines and you just really don’t, if long OCIs are a recipe for disaster how do so many European manufacturers still exist? Don’t most of them recommend long OCIs? For some reason we’ve misidentified fuel dilution and long OCIs for the boogieman, if fuel dilution and long OCIs were so terrible then my 2.0 Ecoboost must have been built different because at 136k miles I’m sure by now I’d have had catastrophic consequences
Read my replies earlier in the thread. Significant dilution requires a specific set of circumstances in order to take place and not all engines are prone to it. Also, please read the links and data I've presented, fuel dilution is most definitely not being misidentified as a boogyman, it's a legitimate issue that can accelerate wear. Accelerated wear does not mean a pile of failed engines, that's the strawman that's oft trotted out when somebody mentions elevated wear rates in any context.
 
Regardless of what buyers say at the outset, most wind up trading or selling their new cars after 10 years or less. Style, technology, changing needs and the like contribute. So maybe this is why things like fuel dilution don’t matter: if one drives a lot and accumulates 200k over 10 years there’s probably enough highway driving to make it a non-issue. Conversely, a low mileage driver with lots of short-tripping may accumulate few miles, so even if fuel dilution accelerates wear, it’s a non-issue as well.
 
What's the sense on the 300ppm moly in the Valvoline EP? Is this definitely the dimer?

I tend towards formulations with the highest moly.
The problem with that logic is that there are different forms of moly. Ive read here that Mobil uses what’s called tri-nuclear moly, which is effective at the lower amounts that they use (~60 ppm).
 
The valve seat has nothing to do with it. On a port-injected engine, the fuel is introduced into a moving air mass at reasonably low pressure but a high degree of atomization, this promotes a very even and homogenous blend of air/fuel. With the direct injection charge, the fuel is sprayed, at high pressure, at the top of the piston, where it deflects and ends up on the cylinder walls. If those walls are cold, this results in droplet formation and subsequently liquid fuel on the walls, which of course washes-down the oil, and makes its way into the sump.


Unless you sampled the oil and sent it to Polaris/OAI, you'd not be aware of how much fuel was making its way into the oil. That said, certain designs are far more prone to issues than others. The Honda 1.5L seems particularly bad, the BMW B58 seems particularly good.

Thank you OK for the links, some more late night reading for all of us who are interested in this subject.

More of my thought and points:

On batch or even SMPI the injection period is not always into a 'forward' moving air mass (depending on load) and partial obstruction of an opening valve will compress then expand the charge which may cause a % of droplets to condense or fall out of suspension - but I agree that running λ = 1.0 at high throttling with the injection period during the valve opening event does promote good fuel atomization with mixture swirl or tumbling depending on valve actuation. This mixture will be exposed to the full area of the cylinder wall be it cold start or fully warmed. Any condensate will be wiped on the up stroke. We have all read reported dilution issue with SMPI for those who idle the vehicle at warmup - especially with starts and coolant below freezing.

It appears side-positioned D.I is at its best at economy cruise, say λ = 1.1 were the injection pulse width is >/= 10ms
and the fuel enters when the piston is at its upper 1/3 of compression stroke travel and the piston top contour - if so employed - will deflect fuel away from the opposite wall. In this scenario there is simultaneous charge phase cooling to prevent pre-ignition and a mostly concentrated charge away from distal surfaces to prevent detonation. An issue with D.I is when the fuel must be injected during the intake stroke and if side positioned and vectored it will impinge and likely wash the opposite wall - especially with long stroke narrow bore engines. Now maybe 1/3 of the ring circumference will be running up along a "dry" cylinder bore.
D.I. cannot inject to great effect under high load/high rpm during exhaust and compression "off--cycle" as SMPI or Batch can,
So we see high velocity/volume injection attempted in milliseconds during un-throttled high load scenarios.

Again this is all specific to any particular design, geometry and timing.

I see some BMW with the Bosch system use a center injector near the spark plug. I wonder what other engines use this approach.
This would be optimal along with SMPI if it doesn't impact valve sizing to a great degree.

My FORD uses side positioned injectors, and is likely an older, sub optimal arrangement.
But I only say that due to my current dilemma.

I see one SAE paper above was presented by engineers from Jiangling Motors Co., LTD., China
The hotbed of research and development. Looks like a discussion of an early implementation. I don't disqualify it, I will read it.

On oil sampling, I agree without a proper lab test I would not have presentable data on my Jetta D.I. Turbo
fuel dilution tendencies.

But, after initial wear-in, I experienced no increase on the dip stick, no ugly appearing oil, and no engine racket
when warmed. Maybe Fat and Happy, but you see I only fret the discordant effects I see and feel.
Or, in other words, I don't go looking for trouble, it finds me all on its own :)

Good discussion.

- Ken
 
Regardless of what buyers say at the outset, most wind up trading or selling their new cars after 10 years or less. Style, technology, changing needs and the like contribute. So maybe this is why things like fuel dilution don’t matter: if one drives a lot and accumulates 200k over 10 years there’s probably enough highway driving to make it a non-issue. Conversely, a low mileage driver with lots of short-tripping may accumulate few miles, so even if fuel dilution accelerates wear, it’s a non-issue as well.
Yes, and by the time those short-tripped examples approach the threshold of having high miles, or begin experiencing issues, that engine isn't current anymore anyways.
 
@ARCOgraphite , the racket you mention at startup, could it be the exhaust manifold due to rich fuel?

On the Mazda SkyActiv they run rich and it is noisy for a few minutes until things get to a certain temperature. Once that is achieved the exhaust manifold goes into its scavenging mode which turns the engine into a purring kitten.
 
Back
Top