thin perhaps not as good as i thought

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Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Trav
I guess i must be a closet thin oil guy.
crackmeup2.gif



Just remember, if we ever have a disagreement over an oil grade, you've used 5w-20 and I have never touched the stuff.
wink.gif


Maybe the second my G37 warranty is up, I should run 15w-40 HDEO in the summer and 5w-20 in the winter and give everyone a fit!


I did a straight 30 over summer, and 25W-70 over winter...it DID give everyone here a fit.
 
Originally Posted By: buster
Think about how stupid people are to assume that just because the move to fuel efficient oils is driven by fuel efficiency somehow means that durability was ignored. Anyone who has spent enough time on here should know better.

Reality is, for the way most people drive, these new low viscosity oils are a good thing. If you're tracking the car and driving 150mph that changes things......

+1 And unfortunate imo to read at least one poster commenting who in the past went so far as to pm a study showing the benefits of use of thinner oil now questioning Ford's desert testing of 5w20 as shown in this document.

And as said, if one doesn't like not having a choice of oils because of warranty concerns then one should buy a vehicle where oil choice is possible, simple. But, seeing as many seem to think they know more than the engineers and munufacturers who tested the engines using xx w20 oils, using thicker oil under warranty shouldn't be a concern. But I've had no engine problems running 5w20 since 01 in what is considered the south so I've found no reason to go thicker than recommended.

A long time ago someone posted(paraphrase) that while cafe 'may' have been the motivation for thinner oil use, the resulting xxw20 oils have proven up to the task and much more. That's how I see it.

As an aside I'll have to say that the level of civility 'by some' commenting here is sad. That said, considering one of the posters commenting here using derogatory labels such as 'fan boys', at least no one has been called a traitor yet for using the recommended xxw20 oil. While I do find the level very surprising by some, in that case it's absolutely no surprise at all.

In the end though, glad to be able read the thoughtful posts like the one above and by Caterham and some others.
 
Originally Posted By: MarkStock
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
The so called info for dealers was sent by Ford to their dealers for them to use for customers who questioned the thin oil. I have a Ford service writer friend who had to deal with answering customers about the thinner oil, he'd hand them a copy and let them read it.


I don't think it was meant to be handed to customers. It contained all sorts of information on what to hold in bulk oil tanks, what vehicles were not subject to 5w20, how to get hold of new products, whether they could mix old and newer bottles of 5w20, how to deal with customer objections, an explanation of why MC oil was cheaper in Walmart. Really not the kind of thing that should be handed to a customer, but I am totally not surprised that a friend of yours / a service advisor, maybe the same chap who told me my 60k rotors were thicker than the spec for new rotors, would do something like that because he couldn't be bothered to read it and explain it in his own words.

But admit it, you really didn't read the article did you? Otherwise you wouldn't have said it was for customers in the first place, and then covered that error by saying it was for service advisors to help them deal with customers, when that was perhaps just 5% of the content.


Unless you live in NY it wasn't the chap that tried to sell you rotors. I've been on BITOG since 2005, guess what, I read that article several times, long before you were a member here it was discussed. It was controversial then too. I read everything Dr.Haas wrote [controversial], along with tons of other info. I read most if not all of the thick vs. thin debates too. In fact I also was a thin oil guy, but after more of my own research I think oil viscosity should be matched to how the vehicle is used. I have a feeling that bothers some people, but views on certain topics can change sometimes can't they? As with everything else in life one size doesn't fit all, and a very large portion of the world seems to agree, and is offered choices.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: sayjac
Originally Posted By: buster
Think about how stupid people are to assume that just because the move to fuel efficient oils is driven by fuel efficiency somehow means that durability was ignored. Anyone who has spent enough time on here should know better.

Reality is, for the way most people drive, these new low viscosity oils are a good thing. If you're tracking the car and driving 150mph that changes things......

+1 And unfortunate imo to read at least one poster commenting who in the past went so far as to pm a study showing the benefits of use of thinner oil now questioning Ford's desert testing of 5w20 as shown in this document.

And as said, if one doesn't like not having a choice of oils because of warranty concerns then one should buy a vehicle where oil choice is possible, simple. But, seeing as many seem to think they know more than the engineers and munufacturers who tested the engines using xx w20 oils, using thicker oil under warranty shouldn't be a concern. But I've had no engine problems running 5w20 since 01 in what is considered the south so I've found no reason to go thicker than recommended.

A long time ago someone posted(paraphrase) that while cafe 'may' have been the motivation for thinner oil use, the resulting xxw20 oils have proven up to the task and much more. That's how I see it.

As an aside I'll have to say that the level of civility 'by some' commenting here is sad. That said, considering one of the posters commenting here using derogatory labels such as 'fan boys', at least no one has been called a traitor yet for using the recommended xxw20 oil. While I do find the level very surprising by some, in that case it's absolutely no surprise at all.

In the end though, glad to be able read the thoughtful posts like the one above and by Caterham and some others.


Do you have a list of new American vehicles that offer oil choices? I wouldn't buy a car based on oil choices, so if that comment was directed at me I just want to clear that up. I will however go on the record as trying to avoid direct injection as long as possible. lol
27.gif
And for the record, people can change their mind, if their research leads them in another direction can't they? Or once a decision is made you must take it to the grave with you? Happy Thanksgiving!
 
First you said you use 0W-20 in your Jeep for warranty. Then you said you use 0W-20 in your Jeep because of the short trips.

Name two reasons why your Jeep needs a heavier oil.

Have you done an oil analysis to see the harm the 0W-20 is causing in your Jeep? No.

Why do you need choices in your Jeep if you will continue to use 0W-20 for warranty purposes?

Why continue to use 0W-20 (even under waaranty) if you know a heavier oil is better for you? That was asked of you and you remained silent. I don't expect a response either; at least a civil one.

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: sayjac
Originally Posted By: buster
Think about how stupid people are to assume that just because the move to fuel efficient oils is driven by fuel efficiency somehow means that durability was ignored. Anyone who has spent enough time on here should know better.

Reality is, for the way most people drive, these new low viscosity oils are a good thing. If you're tracking the car and driving 150mph that changes things......

+1 And unfortunate imo to read at least one poster commenting who in the past went so far as to pm a study showing the benefits of use of thinner oil now questioning Ford's desert testing of 5w20 as shown in this document.

And as said, if one doesn't like not having a choice of oils because of warranty concerns then one should buy a vehicle where oil choice is possible, simple. But, seeing as many seem to think they know more than the engineers and munufacturers who tested the engines using xx w20 oils, using thicker oil under warranty shouldn't be a concern. But I've had no engine problems running 5w20 since 01 in what is considered the south so I've found no reason to go thicker than recommended.

A long time ago someone posted(paraphrase) that while cafe 'may' have been the motivation for thinner oil use, the resulting xxw20 oils have proven up to the task and much more. That's how I see it.

As an aside I'll have to say that the level of civility 'by some' commenting here is sad. That said, considering one of the posters commenting here using derogatory labels such as 'fan boys', at least no one has been called a traitor yet for using the recommended xxw20 oil. While I do find the level very surprising by some, in that case it's absolutely no surprise at all.

In the end though, glad to be able read the thoughtful posts like the one above and by Caterham and some others.


Do you have a list of new American vehicles that offer oil choices? I wouldn't buy a car based on oil choices, so if that comment was directed at me I just want to clear that up. I will however go on the record as trying to avoid direct injection as long as possible. lol
27.gif
And for the record, people can change their mind, if their research leads them in another direction can't they? Or once a decision is made you must take it to the grave with you? Happy Thanksgiving!
 
demarpaint: Sorry old chum, but you need to get back onto your medication. ( : < ) I'm saying that with a smile in the hopes that you will snap back to your normal analytical self.

My friend, you can't counter a factual argument with, and I paraphrase, "They all lie," or "You can't believe what you read." That's how what much you have been saying back to MarkStock is coming across to me. MarkStock is definitely pushing your buttons for whatever reason. Sure, he's a relative noob but I give him credit for for coming on strong and being willing to take the heat of maybe not fully understanding something, stating the BITOG obvious as if it were the first time or dredging up things we have seen 10,000 times. We all were noobs at one point and the truth is, with a couple of exceptions, none of us here know half as much as we think we do. The ones who really do know... and the smartest on BITOG... they aren't here wasting their time in this fairly useless urination contest.

I've been trying to set aside my own oil preferences and really read the posts here with as much of an open mind as I can. If you move past the insults, invective and innuendo, there is actually a whole lot of common ground. We are snarling like wolves over the informational equivalent of tiny meat scraps. Debating the minutiae is a BITOG tradition of sorts. Doing so as we have been is not. Or maybe it's the new tradition as the site gets bigger. Or maybe it's just the lousy state of the world right now. So let's all join hands and sing Kumbaya...
 
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: sayjac
Originally Posted By: buster
Think about how stupid people are to assume that just because the move to fuel efficient oils is driven by fuel efficiency somehow means that durability was ignored. Anyone who has spent enough time on here should know better.

Reality is, for the way most people drive, these new low viscosity oils are a good thing. If you're tracking the car and driving 150mph that changes things......

+1 And unfortunate imo to read at least one poster commenting who in the past went so far as to pm a study showing the benefits of use of thinner oil now questioning Ford's desert testing of 5w20 as shown in this document.

And as said, if one doesn't like not having a choice of oils because of warranty concerns then one should buy a vehicle where oil choice is possible, simple. But, seeing as many seem to think they know more than the engineers and munufacturers who tested the engines using xx w20 oils, using thicker oil under warranty shouldn't be a concern. But I've had no engine problems running 5w20 since 01 in what is considered the south so I've found no reason to go thicker than recommended.

A long time ago someone posted(paraphrase) that while cafe 'may' have been the motivation for thinner oil use, the resulting xxw20 oils have proven up to the task and much more. That's how I see it.

As an aside I'll have to say that the level of civility 'by some' commenting here is sad. That said, considering one of the posters commenting here using derogatory labels such as 'fan boys', at least no one has been called a traitor yet for using the recommended xxw20 oil. While I do find the level very surprising by some, in that case it's absolutely no surprise at all.

In the end though, glad to be able read the thoughtful posts like the one above and by Caterham and some others.


Do you have a list of new American vehicles that offer oil choices? I wouldn't buy a car based on oil choices, so if that comment was directed at me I just want to clear that up..... And for the record, people can change their mind, if their research leads them in another direction can't they? Or once a decision is made you must take it to the grave with you? Happy Thanksgiving!

I have no list, but I don't have an issue using the manufacturers/engineers recommended oil either, so it's not my problem is it? If one wouldn't buy a vehicle based on having oil choice then it must not be a big enough problem to being with. Sounds more like a nitpick, at least it seems that way to me.

You're right though, it's anyone's prerogative to change their mind about a topic for any reason, or no valid reason at all. It's one of the things that makes America great, freedom of thought. In this case you have changed, I haven't. Happy Thanksgiving to you too!
 
I do not have a list of American autos that offer oil choices, but the OM for my Astro says I could use synthetic 5W-30 or 0W-30 if it gets really cold. No need to go heavier even though the GVW/GCVWR is heavier than a Jeep.
 
Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
demarpaint: Sorry old chum, but you need to get back onto your medication. ( : < ) I'm saying that with a smile in the hopes that you will snap back to your normal analytical self.

My friend, you can't counter a factual argument with, and I paraphrase, "They all lie," or "You can't believe what you read." That's how what much you have been saying back to MarkStock is coming across to me. MarkStock is definitely pushing your buttons for whatever reason. Sure, he's a relative noob but I give him credit for for coming on strong and being willing to take the heat of maybe not fully understanding something, stating the BITOG obvious as if it were the first time or dredging up things we have seen 10,000 times. We all were noobs at one point and the truth is, with a couple of exceptions, none of us here know half as much as we think we do. The ones who really do know... and the smartest on BITOG... they aren't here wasting their time in this fairly useless urination contest.

I've been trying to set aside my own oil preferences and really read the posts here with as much of an open mind as I can. If you move past the insults, invective and innuendo, there is actually a whole lot of common ground. We are snarling like wolves over the informational equivalent of tiny meat scraps. Debating the minutiae is a BITOG tradition of sorts. Doing so as we have been is not. Or maybe it's the new tradition as the site gets bigger. Or maybe it's just the lousy state of the world right now. So let's all join hands and sing Kumbaya...


You're right Jim. I guess I can't convey my point clearly. It is about not having a choice, especially for a hands on kind of guy, that's it. Are you a believer of matching oil viscosity to how an engine is used, and one size fits all? I respect you and your opinions. At the moment the oil I'm using in the Jeep is perfect, why change it?
 
How do you know the oil in your Jeep is perfect? Have you done a UOA? You do realize that 0W-20 is suggested for your Jeep because of CAFE, right? You do know that the same vehicle used in other parts of the world suggest heavier oils and other choices, right?

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
demarpaint: Sorry old chum, but you need to get back onto your medication. ( : < ) I'm saying that with a smile in the hopes that you will snap back to your normal analytical self.

My friend, you can't counter a factual argument with, and I paraphrase, "They all lie," or "You can't believe what you read." That's how what much you have been saying back to MarkStock is coming across to me. MarkStock is definitely pushing your buttons for whatever reason. Sure, he's a relative noob but I give him credit for for coming on strong and being willing to take the heat of maybe not fully understanding something, stating the BITOG obvious as if it were the first time or dredging up things we have seen 10,000 times. We all were noobs at one point and the truth is, with a couple of exceptions, none of us here know half as much as we think we do. The ones who really do know... and the smartest on BITOG... they aren't here wasting their time in this fairly useless urination contest.

I've been trying to set aside my own oil preferences and really read the posts here with as much of an open mind as I can. If you move past the insults, invective and innuendo, there is actually a whole lot of common ground. We are snarling like wolves over the informational equivalent of tiny meat scraps. Debating the minutiae is a BITOG tradition of sorts. Doing so as we have been is not. Or maybe it's the new tradition as the site gets bigger. Or maybe it's just the lousy state of the world right now. So let's all join hands and sing Kumbaya...


You're right Jim. I guess I can't convey my point clearly. It is about not having a choice, especially for a hands on kind of guy, that's it. Are you a believer of matching oil viscosity to how an engine is used, and one size fits all? I respect you and your opinions. At the moment the oil I'm using in the Jeep is perfect, why change it?
 
Originally Posted By: Oil Changer
How do you know the oil in your Jeep is perfect? Have you done a UOA? You do realize that 0W-20 is suggested for your Jeep because of CAFE, right? You do know that the same vehicle used in other parts of the world suggest heavier oils and other choices, right?

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
demarpaint: Sorry old chum, but you need to get back onto your medication. ( : < ) I'm saying that with a smile in the hopes that you will snap back to your normal analytical self.

My friend, you can't counter a factual argument with, and I paraphrase, "They all lie," or "You can't believe what you read." That's how what much you have been saying back to MarkStock is coming across to me. MarkStock is definitely pushing your buttons for whatever reason. Sure, he's a relative noob but I give him credit for for coming on strong and being willing to take the heat of maybe not fully understanding something, stating the BITOG obvious as if it were the first time or dredging up things we have seen 10,000 times. We all were noobs at one point and the truth is, with a couple of exceptions, none of us here know half as much as we think we do. The ones who really do know... and the smartest on BITOG... they aren't here wasting their time in this fairly useless urination contest.

I've been trying to set aside my own oil preferences and really read the posts here with as much of an open mind as I can. If you move past the insults, invective and innuendo, there is actually a whole lot of common ground. We are snarling like wolves over the informational equivalent of tiny meat scraps. Debating the minutiae is a BITOG tradition of sorts. Doing so as we have been is not. Or maybe it's the new tradition as the site gets bigger. Or maybe it's just the lousy state of the world right now. So let's all join hands and sing Kumbaya...


You're right Jim. I guess I can't convey my point clearly. It is about not having a choice, especially for a hands on kind of guy, that's it. Are you a believer of matching oil viscosity to how an engine is used, and one size fits all? I respect you and your opinions. At the moment the oil I'm using in the Jeep is perfect, why change it?


Short trips cold weather, can you pick something better? Or are you looking for fight?
 
The fact is this, demarpaint. You DO have choices. There is nothing and no person stopping you from filling your Jeep with a heavier grade oil. You choose not to because in places deep down you will not admit to, you do NOT know that it is okay to use a heavier grade oil in your Jeep.

So w/o risking your warranty, you use 0W-20 even though you would like the choice of using heavier (even though you won't)even though you believe that a heavier oil would be better. I'd like to know what you plan on doing with your Jeep that would require a heavier oil.
 
Sure. I bet the nice and light PP 0W-30 would be just fine for your cold weather, short-tripping Jeep. Try it and find out. Great for cold weather and give you the heavier oil you want the choice of having.

Fight? no. You already hit and dazzled me with your "hints" and "Google search" technical punches already. I don't think I could take anymore.

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Oil Changer
How do you know the oil in your Jeep is perfect? Have you done a UOA? You do realize that 0W-20 is suggested for your Jeep because of CAFE, right? You do know that the same vehicle used in other parts of the world suggest heavier oils and other choices, right?

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
demarpaint: Sorry old chum, but you need to get back onto your medication. ( : < ) I'm saying that with a smile in the hopes that you will snap back to your normal analytical self.

My friend, you can't counter a factual argument with, and I paraphrase, "They all lie," or "You can't believe what you read." That's how what much you have been saying back to MarkStock is coming across to me. MarkStock is definitely pushing your buttons for whatever reason. Sure, he's a relative noob but I give him credit for for coming on strong and being willing to take the heat of maybe not fully understanding something, stating the BITOG obvious as if it were the first time or dredging up things we have seen 10,000 times. We all were noobs at one point and the truth is, with a couple of exceptions, none of us here know half as much as we think we do. The ones who really do know... and the smartest on BITOG... they aren't here wasting their time in this fairly useless urination contest.

I've been trying to set aside my own oil preferences and really read the posts here with as much of an open mind as I can. If you move past the insults, invective and innuendo, there is actually a whole lot of common ground. We are snarling like wolves over the informational equivalent of tiny meat scraps. Debating the minutiae is a BITOG tradition of sorts. Doing so as we have been is not. Or maybe it's the new tradition as the site gets bigger. Or maybe it's just the lousy state of the world right now. So let's all join hands and sing Kumbaya...


You're right Jim. I guess I can't convey my point clearly. It is about not having a choice, especially for a hands on kind of guy, that's it. Are you a believer of matching oil viscosity to how an engine is used, and one size fits all? I respect you and your opinions. At the moment the oil I'm using in the Jeep is perfect, why change it?


Short trips cold weather, can you pick something better? Or are you looking for fight?
 
Quote:
What oil weight would you recommend for the
old 2L ABA 4 cylinder engine in a OBD II 1996 VW Golf driven in the Southeast USA?

Ambient temps are no more than about 95 in summer (usually in the upper 80s to low 90s) and no lower than the lower 30s in the winter.

Rotella T 5w40, GC, 0w40 synthetics.
10w40 in dino.
Personally i like Rotella T 5w40 and some of the Shell Rimula's in a lot of older German engines.
 
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Trav
I guess i must be a closet thin oil guy.
crackmeup2.gif



Just remember, if we ever have a disagreement over an oil grade, you've used 5w-20 and I have never touched the stuff.
wink.gif


Maybe the second my G37 warranty is up, I should run 15w-40 HDEO in the summer and 5w-20 in the winter and give everyone a fit!


Okay i will keep that in mind, guilty as charged.
27.gif

Your right though you start posting stuff like that you will get it from all sides, you better have a double thick flame suit on.
Truth is i don't think it would bother it at all.
 
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
I said sustained driving at 150Mph.

My car has an oil cooler, I have to beat the tar out of it to elevate the oil temperatures.

That being said, there are a number of videos on youtube of my car, and others like it, doing 190Mph. The increase in oil temperature as the car goes over 150Mph is very obvious. At speeds north of 150Mph, the car is working much harder, faster than that, harder still. I'm spinning 7K at 190Mph. The car is fully capable of sitting like that for hours, that's how it was designed. That's also why it has a large sump, spec's a relatively heavy oil and has an oil cooler.

How was it feel at 190 MPH in the M5 ? And where did you get to drive at that elevated speed ?


I probably should have worded that better. Fastest I've had my car personally going is ~160Mph. But I know that with stock gearing, at 190Mph, it spins 7K.
 
Originally Posted By: Oil Changer
Sure. I bet the nice and light PP 0W-30 would be just fine for your cold weather, short-tripping Jeep. Try it and find out. Great for cold weather and give you the heavier oil you want the choice of having.

Fight? no. You already hit and dazzled me with your "hints" and "Google search" technical punches already. I don't think I could take anymore.



Obviously I didn't dazzle you enough, you didn't use the search function, Google, or spend much time reading here. If you did you'd know PP 0W30 doesn't exist. Maybe you should suggest it to Pennzoil, I bet it would sell.

Here this time I did some searching for you:

PP is available in these grades.

USA
SAE 0W-20
SAE 5W-20
SAE 5W-30
SAE 10W-30
SAE 5W-50

Euro Diesel
SAE 5W-30

Euro
SAE 5W-30
 
Originally Posted By: Oil Changer
The fact is this, demarpaint. You DO have choices. There is nothing and no person stopping you from filling your Jeep with a heavier grade oil. You choose not to because in places deep down you will not admit to, you do NOT know that it is okay to use a heavier grade oil in your Jeep.

So w/o risking your warranty, you use 0W-20 even though you would like the choice of using heavier (even though you won't)even though you believe that a heavier oil would be better. I'd like to know what you plan on doing with your Jeep that would require a heavier oil.


Facts, wow new to me, your opinion on what I do, or feel, is fact? Dude if I was sitting next to you would you know who I am?

Heavier grade oil is fine my Jeep. Here's a real fact, the 2006 model with the identical engine calls for 5W30. Care to show me some facts on how the engine internals changed? Again Google can be very helpful. Now explain to me how it will ruin my engine with more facts.
 
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