thin perhaps not as good as i thought

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: OilChanger
Now explain to me how it will ruin my engine with more facts.


Sorry I forgot to answer this. If things work out this summer I will be towing a 5,000 lb boat up from the Huntersville NC to NY. The Jeep will be doing the towing if I go through with this deal. I will lock it out of OD so the engine will be revving higher than normal. I'll have the warranty issue covered too when I make the switch to 0w30 for the trip should I grenade the engine on the thicker oil. LOL

 

[kschachn]

Is this a troll? "My old man commented that the Mobil 1 0w40 that was poured into my BMW feels like water. Not impressed."

Not impressed by what? The specs for M1 0W-40?

Originally Posted By: Ranchu
My old man commented that the Mobil 1 0w40 that was poured into my BMW feels like water. Not impressed.

I'm gonna pour some of this in and see how it runs

http://www.penriteoil.com.au/engineoils-products.php?id_categ=1&id_products=6

 

[KD0AXS]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Is this a troll? "My old man commented that the Mobil 1 0w40 that was poured into my BMW feels like water. Not impressed."

Not impressed by what? The specs for M1 0W-40?

Originally Posted By: Ranchu
My old man commented that the Mobil 1 0w40 that was poured into my BMW feels like water. Not impressed.

I'm gonna pour some of this in and see how it runs

http://www.penriteoil.com.au/engineoils-products.php?id_categ=1&id_products=6



Obviously someone doesn't understand what "0W-40" means.

 

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
I probably should have worded that better. Fastest I've had my car personally going is ~160Mph. But I know that with stock gearing, at 190Mph, it spins 7K.

Where ? An empty section of a highway or at a racetrack ?

I think there are some sections of So Cal highway near Nevada border can do 150-160 MPH if no traffic, but I didn't have the gut to do that for reason of possible arrested and license provoked.

 

[richport29]

Would using a 0w20 oil be ok for the cold winter months, Canada.

My Grand prix calls for either 5w30 or 10w30, depending on temp
Would I seen any benefits going to a 20 weight oil? (winter only)

 

[MarkStock]

Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
demarpaint: Sorry old chum, but you need to get back onto your medication. ( : < ) I'm saying that with a smile in the hopes that you will snap back to your normal analytical self.

My friend, you can't counter a factual argument with, and I paraphrase, "They all lie," or "You can't believe what you read." That's how what much you have been saying back to MarkStock is coming across to me. MarkStock is definitely pushing your buttons for whatever reason. Sure, he's a relative noob but I give him credit for for coming on strong and being willing to take the heat of maybe not fully understanding something, stating the BITOG obvious as if it were the first time or dredging up things we have seen 10,000 times. We all were noobs at one point and the truth is, with a couple of exceptions, none of us here know half as much as we think we do. The ones who really do know... and the smartest on BITOG... they aren't here wasting their time in this fairly useless urination contest.

I've been trying to set aside my own oil preferences and really read the posts here with as much of an open mind as I can. If you move past the insults, invective and innuendo, there is actually a whole lot of common ground. We are snarling like wolves over the informational equivalent of tiny meat scraps. Debating the minutiae is a BITOG tradition of sorts. Doing so as we have been is not. Or maybe it's the new tradition as the site gets bigger. Or maybe it's just the lousy state of the world right now. So let's all join hands and sing Kumbaya...


Jim, thanks, I think!

I know a few of you guys have a lot of this information and been through the arguments hundreds of times. I've actually been reading for far longer than I've been on here so have seen a lot of those threads!

My bringing up the obvious was mainly a response to demarpaint. As you state, he hasn't been analytical or fact based. I took that as normal for him, not a phase he was going through. Also, since he has 15,000+ posts, I thought that perhaps the information I was reading was not as widely known and I felt that as a relatively new poster, I needed to show my statements were based on facts.

I'm also interested in the bigger picture. As I mentioned, I have an economics background. So I find it interesting to establish exactly what is the influence of regulation on the engineering.

It is certainly possible that in order to save money as a response to CAFE, execs at manufacturers would push the engineers to find ways of improving mpg. And that under pressure, engineers could fudge those tests.

I've already said that for sure, stating 5w20 or 0w20 only, is very likely influenced by forcing adoption in a response to the reasonable expectation that the EPA has that we'll only consider you meeting CAFE if people actually use the lighter oil.

Having said that I would trust engineering at places like Toyota the most to make sure reliability was not compromised. I am familiar with the Toyota way from a business perspective and a personal perspective.

Out of the US manufacturers, I would trust Ford the most, and Chrysler the least. For my own personal vehicles interest, establishing the Ford engineering in their move to lighter oil is enlightening and reassuring. For my interest in business and economics, reading the letter to dealers is interesting at it reveals the practical difficulties of making such a change and how progress clashes with established and uninformed attitudes.

Now that you say that demarpaint is usually analytical, it intrigues me even more about the timing of his tirade against CAFE and freedom of choice.

One aspect of organizational effectiveness that I've concentrated on over the last couple of years is recognizing that at the core of every seemingly logical decision, is actually an emotional decision. That all decisions are in some way emotional. Helping people realize that, eventually helps them, not just because it helps them make better decisions, but because it helps them realize how and why they make their choices.

Having said that, I would rather see demarpaint bring up the facts behind his belief that Chryslers can't do everything on the specified oil, rather than just a complaint about CAFE.

That would be an interesting discussion!

Out of interest, I looked up the owners manual for my now sold 2007 Lexus that spec'd 5w30, and it said that a higher viscosity may be applicable for higher loads and speeds. In general, I have read manufacturers only saying that if an engine failure occurs, they would consider oil as a factor in a warranty decision. I've never taken this as an absolute, and they would have a hard time arguing legally that a slightly thicker oil caused engine failure. IMO, it's more to cover really stupid behavior, not in cases where the owner chose 5w30 instead of 5w20.

 

[MarkStock]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Heavier grade oil is fine my Jeep. Here's a real fact, the 2006 model with the identical engine calls for 5W30. Care to show me some facts on how the engine internals changed?


Speculation from a noob here, but when I read up on why some years of Ford's with identical engines went to 5w20 and some didn't, one thing that came up was the oil pump could handle lighter oil in some cases and in other cases it couldn't.

So when you say an engine is the same, do you know for a fact that every single part of it and the design around it is exactly the same? How about any software to do with achieving fuel economy?

Could it be that some part of it was changed to run 20 weight and that that specific part would no longer be suitable for 30 weight?

There are lots of little changes in vehicles even during the model year. Different parts supplies, different manufacturing locations. Everything is tracked. I was once talking to a hard disk manufacturer who wanted to run quite large scale analytical software and databases in order to match up product return patterns due to failure to the exact components that were used. Without calculating this at the smallest level of detail, any conclusions they reached would be conjecture.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
I probably should have worded that better. Fastest I've had my car personally going is ~160Mph. But I know that with stock gearing, at 190Mph, it spins 7K.

Where ? An empty section of a highway or at a racetrack ?

I think there are some sections of So Cal highway near Nevada border can do 150-160 MPH if no traffic, but I didn't have the gut to do that for reason of possible arrested and license provoked.


For those very reasons, I'm not going to answer your question. I will just say that it gets there a lot quicker than I expected

 

[Oil Changer]

You are quite the oddball!

You're answering a question from yourself that you turned into a quote from me?

There is a ring of truth to that medication statement.


Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: OilChanger
Now explain to me how it will ruin my engine with more facts.


Sorry I forgot to answer this. If things work out this summer I will be towing a 5,000 lb boat up from the Huntersville NC to NY. The Jeep will be doing the towing if I go through with this deal. I will lock it out of OD so the engine will be revving higher than normal. I'll have the warranty issue covered too when I make the switch to 0w30 for the trip should I grenade the engine on the thicker oil. LOL

 

[TFB1]

Originally Posted By: MarkStock

So when you say an engine is the same, do you know for a fact that every single part of it and the design around it is exactly the same? How about any software to do with achieving fuel economy?

Could it be that some part of it was changed to run 20 weight and that that specific part would no longer be suitable for 30 weight?



I've looked up specs & clearances for 1998(5W-30) & 2002(5W-20) Ford 4.6 engines they are in fact the same (at least in the Crown Vic & Grand Marquis)... Also the '00 back to '91 4.6 was back specked to 5W-20, so absolutely there is no internal difference in those engines(Ford received some type CAFE credit for doing so on models three or less years old, would look fishy if they only back specked three years)...

I've run 5W-20 through 10W-40 in a variety of 4.6 Ford engines without issue... I stick with 5W-30 in the mundane 2 valve versions because I could care less about gas mileage and will run one to redline and past... The modified Marauder gets 0W-40 cause I'll never believe 5W-20 is going to protect a engine making approx 525 crank HP at 6000+ RPM...

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
Originally Posted By: Trav
Quote:

Originally Posted By: Trav

I coined that phase, by the way, not CATERHAM or anyone else.

Oh well he proudly took credit for it in a post not to long ago.


Didn't see that. If he did, he's wrong. But it's easily provable one way or another. Someone go back and research my posts 4 years or so ago. I didn't make that statement to claim credit as much as I did it to stop people from using it against him.

Jim thanks for the kind words in this thread; you are a true gentleman.

Regarding who introduced the lubrication tenet, "thin as possible, as thick as necessary" first to BITOG? The following quote should answer the question:

AM Re: Any downsides to thicker oil? [Re: CATERHAM]
Jim Allen
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
I believe the old oil axiom applies;
"the oil should be as thin as possible and just as thick as necessary".

Never heard that applied to oil, but the old Land Rover/Camel Trophy off-highway driving creedo that was pounded into us was:

"As slowly as possible, as fast as necessary."

I'm adapting the oil one to

"As thin as possible, as thick as necessary."

And I will use it shamelessly!


Edited by Jim Allen (07/15/10 08:25 AM)


It came from the following thread of 07/15/10:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1954522&page=4

So it looks like you took my lengthier quote as distilled it down to it's more simplified essence and have been using it "shamelessly" ever since!

Cheers

 

[Cup of Joe]

Some prefer:

"As thick as possible, as thin as necessary."

 

[Gebo]

OR..."as thick as possible, thin's not necessary"

LOL

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Oil Changer
You are quite the oddball!

You're answering a question from yourself that you turned into a quote from me?

There is a ring of truth to that medication statement.


Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: OilChanger
Now explain to me how it will ruin my engine with more facts.


Sorry I forgot to answer this. If things work out this summer I will be towing a 5,000 lb boat up from the Huntersville NC to NY. The Jeep will be doing the towing if I go through with this deal. I will lock it out of OD so the engine will be revving higher than normal. I'll have the warranty issue covered too when I make the switch to 0w30 for the trip should I grenade the engine on the thicker oil. LOL


Wow look at that you nailed me in a copy paste mistake. Good on you.

I was asking you how the thicker oil will ruin my engine under the conditions I described. My bad.

You take meds? I'm sorry to hear that, try eating healthy foods and exercise, it might help.

 

[Jim Allen]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: Jim Allen

Quote:

Originally Posted By: Trav

Quote:
I coined that phase, by the way, not CATERHAM or anyone else.

Oh well he proudly took credit for it in a post not to long ago.


Didn't see that. If he did, he's wrong. But it's easily provable one way or another. Someone go back and research my posts 4 years or so ago. I didn't make that statement to claim credit as much as I did it to stop people from using it against him.



Jim thanks for the kind words in this thread; you are a true gentleman.

Regarding who introduced the lubrication tenet, "thin as possible, as thick as necessary" first to BITOG? The following quote should answer the question:

AM Re: Any downsides to thicker oil? [Re: CATERHAM]
Jim Allen
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
I believe the old oil axiom applies;
"the oil should be as thin as possible and just as thick as necessary".

Never heard that applied to oil, but the old Land Rover/Camel Trophy off-highway driving creedo that was pounded into us was:

"As slowly as possible, as fast as necessary."

I'm adapting the oil one to

"As thin as possible, as thick as necessary."

And I will use it shamelessly!


Edited by Jim Allen (07/15/10 08:25 AM)


It came from the following thread of 07/15/10:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1954522&page=4

So it looks like you took my lengthier quote as distilled it down to it's more simplified essence and have been using it "shamelessly" ever since!

Cheers




I take credit only for introducing the distillation. You get credit for introducing the root phrase but I guess the laws of physics gets the ultimate credit.

For me, I must say that 2010 exchange was one of those "aha!" moments that got me to thinking about oil differently than I had before.

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted By: TaterandNoodles
Some prefer:

"As thick as possible, as thin as necessary."

Hey why not there are two sides to every street.
The self proclaimed "experts" get their knickers in a twist at such talk though.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: MarkStock
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Heavier grade oil is fine my Jeep. Here's a real fact, the 2006 model with the identical engine calls for 5W30. Care to show me some facts on how the engine internals changed?


Speculation from a noob here, but when I read up on why some years of Ford's with identical engines went to 5w20 and some didn't, one thing that came up was the oil pump could handle lighter oil in some cases and in other cases it couldn't.

So when you say an engine is the same, do you know for a fact that every single part of it and the design around it is exactly the same? How about any software to do with achieving fuel economy?

Could it be that some part of it was changed to run 20 weight and that that specific part would no longer be suitable for 30 weight?

There are lots of little changes in vehicles even during the model year. Different parts supplies, different manufacturing locations. Everything is tracked. I was once talking to a hard disk manufacturer who wanted to run quite large scale analytical software and databases in order to match up product return patterns due to failure to the exact components that were used. Without calculating this at the smallest level of detail, any conclusions they reached would be conjecture.


Agreed engines can change in the middle of a model year if there's a problem, an improvement, or a cheaper part. A recent example would be the Pentastar engine's left cylinder head, because of design issues. ASFAIK there were no changes to the 3.7L Jeep engine at all, they were planning to phase it out.

Now this might or might not be of interest but, here goes. My 1988 E-150 calls for 30 grade oil. I read the oil pump couldn't handle 20 grade oil and that was the reason it wasn't back spec'd to 20 grade oil. The 93 4.9L engine was back spec'd to 5W20, the oil pump and bearings are the same for both years. Any idea why? I haven't a clue.

 

[Cup of Joe]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: TaterandNoodles
Some prefer:

"As thick as possible, as thin as necessary."

Hey why not there are two sides to every street.
The self proclaimed "experts" get their knickers in a twist at such talk though.


Agreed.

 

[Jim Allen]

Originally Posted By: MarkStock


Jim, thanks, I think!



I know it sounded strange but I mean it in the best possible way. By coming on strong, as you have, you exposed yourself to some extra "heat." That takes a certain amount of courage and confidence. Or false bravado. When our assertions are challenged, especially when they are challenged and disproved, we are given the opportunity of changing our minds in public... or not... and that's the disclosure of courage or false bravado.

I know it got kinda hot between you and Demarpaint but he really is one of the good guys here. Hope you will be too.

 

[Jim Allen]

Originally Posted By: Trav

The self proclaimed "experts" get their knickers in a twist at such talk though.


With a couple of notable exceptions (not including you and me) that's what everyone is here. And most true "experts" don't have the time to waste here.