The truth about American-made cars

[babyivan]

Originally Posted By: surfstar
I buy used, private-party. Which country and jobs am I supporting?

No car payments or CC debt - about as un-American as it gets, I guess.


*****, same here!!!

 

[KrisZ]

Here is a perfect combination that should satisfy the globalists and domestic buyers

Seriously though, people still have to be careful as there are a lot of loop holes in the "Made in USA" label.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: KrisZ

Here is a perfect combination that should satisfy the globalists and domestic buyers

Seriously though, people still have to be careful as there are a lot of loop holes in the "Made in USA" label.

That's sad.......

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
It's somehow wrong to route for the US and US automakers?


Supporting one brand or country of brand for any reason you like is just fine. Talking down others, and beating the same dead horse over and over again on the same topic, however, does a disservice to your message.

It's not at all unlike the anti-debt lectures that often come up in new car threads. The approach is often without tact and comes across as very off-putting to any potential audience.

I'm not saying that you should or shouldn't post your opinions. What I am saying is the message isn't coming across as a positive one.

 

[stephen9666]

Originally Posted By: KrisZ

Here is a perfect combination that should satisfy the globalists and domestic buyers

Seriously though, people still have to be careful as there are a lot of loop holes in the "Made in USA" label.

There actually are not a "lot of loopholes." There are, however, lots of mistakes or companies generally skirting the rules. In the case you post, you could report it to the FTC, depending on how it was sold. EDIT - I now see you're from America's Hat, so I'm assuming you won't be contacting the FTC.

I don't know the whole story behind these pictures, but there are ways it could be OK. If the orange grip is a separate product sold independently of the sprayer, then the grip could be labeled made in the USA, which it may be. If the grip and sprayer are sold as one item, then that would appear to be a pretty clear violation of the "all or virtually all" requirement.

Quote:
What if I suspect noncompliance with the FTC’s Made in USA standard or other country-of-origin mislabeling?

Information about possible illegal activity helps law enforcement officials target companies whose practices warrant scrutiny. If you suspect noncompliance, contact the Division of Enforcement, Bureau of Consumer Protection, Federal Trade Commission, Washington, DC 20580; (202) 326-2996 or send an e-mail to [email protected]



Here are the rules for a product to be labeled "made in the USA." They're actually quite strict, much more strict than the labeling requirements for imported products.
http://www.business.ftc.gov/documents/bus03-complying-made-usa-standard
Quote:
What is the standard for a product to be called Made in USA without qualification?

For a product to be called Made in USA, or claimed to be of domestic origin without qualifications or limits on the claim, the product must be "all or virtually all" made in the U.S. The term "United States," as referred to in the Enforcement Policy Statement, includes the 50 states, the District of Columbia, and the U.S. territories and possessions.

What does "all or virtually all" mean?

"All or virtually all" means that all significant parts and processing that go into the product must be of U.S. origin. That is, the product should contain no — or negligible — foreign content.

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
It's somehow wrong to route for the US and US automakers?


Supporting one brand or country of brand for any reason you like is just fine. Talking down others, and beating the same dead horse over and over again on the same topic, however, does a disservice to your message.

It's not at all unlike the anti-debt lectures that often come up in new car threads. The approach is often without tact and comes across as very off-putting to any potential audience.

I'm not saying that you should or shouldn't post your opinions. What I am saying is the message isn't coming across as a positive one.


Fair enough but it's certainly not my fault if it doesn't come across as positive. I'm just trying to get to the facts between all the claims that there's no such things as an American car, American cars were and are "junk", the anti-union stuff, American cars have bad interiors, inferior ride and handling and all these other misconceptions that get thrown around.

The real story of where the money is really going on transplant produced cars has never been fully investigated and revealed at least not by popular media. If you really care about that then you should want to know, otherwise just admit that you don't care. So my opinion is a simple and positive one, that American-brand cars are for the most part every bit as good or better than others in most every way, and that there still is economic reasons for buying American-brand cars. So they deserve a lot more consideration and cross-shopping than it seems they receive.

 

[stephen9666]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx

Fair enough but it's certainly not my fault if it doesn't come across as positive. I'm just trying to get to the facts between all the claims


You mean your opinion between all the claims...

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: stephen9666
Unless I missed it, neither the article nor anyone here has linked to the DuBois study quoted in the article.

Here is a brief synopsis:
http://www.american.edu/media/news/20130..._in_America.cfm

Here is a related article:
http://kogodnow.com/2013/03/in-globalization-age-what-does-made-in-america-mean/

Here's the full index of cars:
http://kogodnow.com/autoindex/

Here's the link to NHTSA's full report of US/Canadian content:
http://www.nhtsa.gov/Laws+&+Regulations/Part+583+American+Automobile+Labeling+Act+%28AALA%29+Reports

I don't think DuBois's reasoning is flawless, but it's nonetheless an interesting read.

The only thing I'll add is that if you want to buy American, there are still quite a few Big 3 cars to avoid like the plague. The Fusion is one glaring example. It's made in Mexico with only 30% US/Canadian content.


BW, thanks for that post. This the info that I really wanted to get to and maybe discuss.

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: stephen9666
Originally Posted By: mechanicx

Fair enough but it's certainly not my fault if it doesn't come across as positive. I'm just trying to get to the facts between all the claims


You mean your opinion between all the claims...


You can call it opinion that's fine. I'm trying to back it up with factual support and base my opinion in facts. Does the links posted here not back up my opinion as having basis in facts?

 

[Bladecutter]

My first 3 cars were GM products:

'81 Pontiac Grand Prix. Bought used in '91 with ~84k miles on it.
Built by workers in Canada.
Great Buick Built V-6 engine, that was weak on power, but lasted a long, long time before needing to be replaced. Great car for a first one. Car was sold by my dad to a neighbor up the street from him in Canada in the late 90's.

'82 Chevy Monte Carlo. Bought used in '96 with unknown miles on it.
Hunk of [censored] Chevy Built V-6 that wasn't worth the iron it was made from.
Built by workers in either Michigan or Texas. Junked in '97.

'92 Buick Park Avenue Ultra. Bought it used in 2000 with 160k+ miles on it.
Built by union workers in Michigan.
Fantastic supercharged engine, let down by everything that was bolted to it, and it was bolted to. That car turned into a money pit right after buying it. Junked in '06.

'07 Nissan Altima. Bought new in Dec '06.
Great car. Only problem it ever had was the right front rotor kept warping.
It was built in Canton, Mississippi. Traded in in '11

'98 Porsche Boxster. Bought used in '09, 81k miles.
Needed a new front engine mount, and rear struts when I bought it.
Only failures during ownership was a MAF sensor, water pump, and a sensor for the convertible top that cost $35. Without that sensors, the windows wouldn't fully roll up after you closed the convertible top. Traded in in '11.

'11 Mazda RX-8. Bought new in '11.
Never a single failure. Built by union workers in Japan.
Traded in in '14

'14 Mazda CX-5. Bought new a month ago.
Still in its infancy. Also built by union workers in Japan.

I've test driven plenty of American, Japanese, Korean, Italian, and German cars since I could afford to buy new cars, and so far, every American Car I have test driven has left me not wanting to buy it.

Why should I buy an American Car if I don't like looking at it, sitting in it, or driving it?

One of two things will have to happen in order for me to own an American car again:

They really improve all aspects of their product to the point that I enjoy the car compared to the competition, or someone else has to pay for the car, and give it to me. I'm not going to spend my own hard earned money on something I don't like.

How many of you buy cars you don't like just because they are American?
How many of you don't buy cars you do like just because they aren't American?

BC.

 

[Doog]

Originally Posted By: dishdude
Wow, the trolls sure flocked to this thread like moths to a light bulb.


Well, it is a troll thread...what did you expect.

 

[Doog]

Originally Posted By: sciphi
I purchased a union-built, made in Ohio Detroit 3 car brand-new since it happened to be the best choice for me at the $20,000 mark. The fact that it happened to be faster, quieter, better-handling, and more fuel-efficient than any of its competition, ie a better driver's car, swayed me to purchase it over a "foreign-make" car.

Detroit is putting out some fantastic cars these days. Even if they're tweaked "global" designs.


Post back when it hits 100k...the truth is over 100k with any brand in my opinion.

 

[Doog]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
This is an interesting article.


And he didn't even mention the much lower pay and temporary worker status the foreign transplants ushered in.

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: Doog
Originally Posted By: dishdude
Wow, the trolls sure flocked to this thread like moths to a light bulb.


Well, it is a troll thread...what did you expect.

It only becomes a troll thread when some posters start in with their trollish and made-up anti-union stuff and the trollish claims that American cars don't hold up

.

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: Bladecutter
How many of you buy cars you don't like just because they are American?
How many of you don't buy cars you do like just because they aren't American?

BC.


This is actually a great question. I'd argue that it goes both ways, and more often than not the question becomes:

How many of you buy cars you don't like just because they are not American (or just because they are Japanese or European)?

How many of you don't buy cars you do like just because they are American?



I absolutely believe this more often to be the case, because you can't read the media without being lead into buying a non-American car with mostly questionable claims of better reliability and a few very vague and subjective reasons that would be best left up to the car shopper to decide not the media. I can't believe of all the average Americans buying 4-door Camry and Accords that many wouldn't prefer a Malibu or other American equivalent. Why do you think Toyota and Honda etc have been continuously Americanizing these cars in size, ride-comfort, somewhat in styling etc?

I ride and drive in late-model imports and I find that many of them have inferior ride and handling or at least not any better, or inferior or no better interiors or comfort. So I'm not sure where so many people get this idea that American cars are coming up short. American trim, switchgear and interiors are not like your 80's models.

 

[Bladecutter]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
This is actually a great question. I'd argue that it goes both ways, and more often than not the question becomes:

How many of you buy cars you don't like just because they are not American (or Japanese or European)?

How many of you don't buy cars you do like just because they are American?



I absolutely believe this more often to be the case, because you can't read the media without being lead into buying a non-American car with mostly questionable claims of better reliability and a few very vague and subjective reasons that would be best left up to the car shopper to decide not the media. I can't believe of all the average Americans buying 4-door Camry and Accords that many wouldn't prefer a Malibu or other American equivalent. Why do you think Toyota and Honda etc have been continuously Americanizing these cars in size, ride-comfort, somewhat in styling etc?


Thank you for picking up on my point of people buying or not buying cars that they like.

I now only buy cars that I like, as I have the financial means to get exactly what I really want. When I was younger, my finances were considerably less, so that altered my vehicle purchases.

Now, I don't have to compromise.

If a US car company builds a car I love to look at, love to sit in, and love the way it drives, I'll buy it, if there isn't a better car on the market from a foreign company.

To me, it doesn't matter if it's a Dodge, Porsche, Chevy, Mazda, or Fiat.
If it's good, it's mine.
If it's not good, I'm not buying it.

Honestly, that's how I feel the market should be.
Let the better car win, and let the losers upgrade their cars to best the winner the next year.

Unfortunately, that's not how the sales tend to go.
Too many people just want a driving appliance.

BC.

 

[Bladecutter]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
I ride and drive in late-model imports and I find that many of them have inferior ride and handling or at least not any better, or inferior or no better interiors or comfort. So I'm not sure where so many people get this idea that American cars are coming up short. American trim, switchgear and interiors are not like your 80's models.


Ahh, you added more to your post.

What you want in a suspension is probably the polar opposite of what I want.

Someone who wants a sportier ride will probably aim for the Mazda and Honda, while those who want a softer ride will go for a Buick or Chevy. Those who don't want to feel anything when they drive will buy a Toyota. Those who want to be completely confused at the wheel will buy Kia's and Hyundai's. I've never quite figured out who it is that designs their suspension and steering feedback, or if anyone actually does any research for those two factors at Hyundai.

A lot of American car companies think that a Sport suspension means stiffen the heck out of the springs. The rides become punishing. That's not what I want in a suspension. Hence why Porsche and Mazda have been my last 3 purchases.

I really did like my Nissan Altima.
They just no longer offer it in a manual here in the US, and I don't like the CVT transmission. The auto in the CX-5 is better, in every respect, than any other auto I have ever test driven. So, it's the first automatic car I've bought in quite a long time. I also didn't care much for the 2013 Altima interior at the car show. Just doesn't look as good, in my opinion, as my '07 interior.

BC.

 

[mechanicx]

I basically agree except what is really the best for the economy is a factor for me. But to your credit at least you come out and say it's not much of a factor. And I think there is a lot of misinformation to car buyers. They're almost programmed to buy certain cars. Then they may rationalize it's what they really wanted.

No one, foreign or domestic nowadays is completely building cars they way I like. For instance, I somewhat like the ATS and a few other various makes but they're not even available in a 2-door. I sort of like BMWs but there's things I don't like. I like some things about Japanese cars and others things I don't. Back in the 90's there were more cars I would like than there is today. If the car has a good driving feel, somewhat sporty and is not too noisy or harsh riding, I think that's about all you can ask for with all these cookie-cutter cars.

 

[aquariuscsm]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
No one, foreign or domestic nowadays is completely building cars they way I like. Back in the 90's there were more cars I would like than there is today. If the car has a good driving feel, somewhat sporty and is not too noisy or harsh riding, I think that's about all you can ask for with all these cookie-cutter cars.


I completely agree.

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: Bladecutter
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
I ride and drive in late-model imports and I find that many of them have inferior ride and handling or at least not any better, or inferior or no better interiors or comfort. So I'm not sure where so many people get this idea that American cars are coming up short. American trim, switchgear and interiors are not like your 80's models.


Ahh, you added more to your post.

What you want in a suspension is probably the polar opposite of what I want.

Someone who wants a sportier ride will probably aim for the Mazda and Honda, while those who want a softer ride will go for a Buick or Chevy. Those who don't want to feel anything when they drive will buy a Toyota. Those who want to be completely confused at the wheel will buy Kia's and Hyundai's. I've never quite figured out who it is that designs their suspension and steering feedback, or if anyone actually does any research for those two factors at Hyundai.

A lot of American car companies think that a Sport suspension means stiffen the heck out of the springs. The rides become punishing. That's not what I want in a suspension. Hence why Porsche and Mazda have been my last 3 purchases.

I really did like my Nissan Altima.
They just no longer offer it in a manual here in the US, and I don't like the CVT transmission. The auto in the CX-5 is better, in every respect, than any other auto I have ever test driven. So, it's the first automatic car I've bought in quite a long time. I also didn't care much for the 2013 Altima interior at the car show. Just doesn't look as good, in my opinion, as my '07 interior.

BC.


Actually what I want is the best handling, performance and ride quality balance. Spring rates and damper rates are very important in getting there. Bushing rates are important too. I actually think GM (Pontiac and Olds were too)is very good at balancing spring rate and damper rate to give a very good ride while maintaining performance. But sometimes they go on the softer side. I probably do prefer tuning ride and controls on the lighter side, but that doesn't mean you have togive up feel or performance much. It just takes better tuning. I noticed some imports that would have stiff springs/shocks but small tires with little grip and heavier steering with no road feel, and mushy brakes etc. A harder noisy ride does not make a car better performing. I'm not saying all imports and domestics are this way.

Strictly my opinion but American and European cars are tuned better than Japanese with the exception of Mazda, and Koreans at the bottom. But really there are no hard and fast rules and it is model and driver preference dependent