Toyota Apologizes for Cheating on Vehicle Testing

[meep]

Something not mentioned here regarding Toyota…. Do we recall the bitog conversations 4 years ago where it was observed that their growth was forcing them to adjust to much larger quantities and therefore challenges in their culture and business model? Bitog prophets forecasted that this would be a difficult time for Toyota, one that could make or break them.

Is that what we are seeing now? Business growth, through certain phases and milestones is hard, very hard. Old ways of thinking don’t always translate well as they are scaled.

I don’t think they are nearly as bad as some posts in this thread suggest. I might consider a 4R as an f150 replacement in a year or 2.

 

[Nessism1]

What is it about diesel engines that make all these OEM's cheat?

 

[fantastic]

woops!

 

[Four Rings]

We are seeing a trend here. I guess it's hard to get diesels to comply with standards put forth by governments

Indeed.

 

[ltslimjim]

The article reads that they cheated in multiple differents tests. That smells like an organizational culture issue.

Cheating on results. How bad could it get?

Reminds me of the sickening Takata airbag culture.

 

[Ws6]

At least to me, it looks like Toyota is moving away from producing high-quality and reliable vehicles. I'm sure that the apology from CEO Koji Sato will make all the difference for those who spent their hard-earned money on a Toyota Tundra pickup truck with the new twin-turbocharged V6. That is an engine design that others have mastered a long time ago. Like many others here, I have looked at the new Toyota Tundra and considered paying a premium over competing models to get the legendary Toyota reliability, even if I find the new Tundra ugly and otherwise unappealing. Sometimes I think that Toyota rehired the Saab engineers that GM let go right before they bankrupted the company. Those are one of the few groups of engineers who could take something simple and completely re-engineer it, quadrupling the cost. Or worse, they refused to use something readily available like a GM infotainment system with built-in navigation and instead re-engineered their own from scratch. Ironically, all that re-engineering made those Saab vehicles the opposite of better. How does this apply to Toyota? Well, instead of taking a good look at readily available turbocharged V6 engines or even enlisting BMW's help, as they did with the new Supra, Toyota decided to cut costs and corners with their new V6 engine, and now faithful customers are paying for it.

For those of you who don't want to read the entire article, I have sumarized it:

Toyota recently faced scrutiny for flawed testing procedures at one of its group companies, Toyota Industries Corp., which manufactures diesel engines. This incident is part of a series of similar issues within Toyota's affiliated companies in recent years.

CEO Koji Sato publicly apologized to customers, suppliers, and dealers, acknowledging the failure in maintaining proper oversight and communication regarding the certification testing processes. The flawed testing involved falsifying results required for Japanese government approvals, affecting thousands of vehicles globally, including popular models like the Land Cruiser and Hilux.

Toyota has halted production of affected models until proper testing can be completed, although existing owners can continue using their vehicles. This scandal follows earlier issues at Daihatsu Motor Corp. and Hino Motors, both of which are part of the Toyota group, where similar cheating practices were discovered.

Sato emphasized the need for improved communication and a better understanding of the importance of compliance among all levels of management and staff to prevent such incidents in the future

Source: Yahoo! - Toyota apologizes for cheating on vehicle testing

My RAV4 Prime experience will be my first and last Toyota.

 

[97prizm]

You realize the OEM has to approve any and all changes to spec, and can and do reject parts on delivery? If the supplier delivers a different part, its been approved as equivalent.

Except in the case years ago when the Ford Mustang V8 transmissions were failing left and right. Ford kept gt350 and gt350r transmission assembly in the USA. Ford opted to use the Tremec assembly plant in Guangzhou China for the Mustang. They had numerous issues with them under warranty. After many replacements Ford found out that some employees within the Tremec plant went to a different supplier and found cheaper parts to use meaning they'd make more money per transmission built.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

What is it about diesel engines that make all these OEM's cheat?

Diesels are inherently dirty burning. Too much soot and too much NOX which contributes to poor air quality.

It's difficult to cost effectively produce the required emissions components with a long service life. Especially when you're trying to also increase the performance of the engine.

 

[SC Maintenance]

Except in the case years ago when the Ford Mustang V8 transmissions were failing left and right. Ford kept gt350 and gt350r transmission assembly in the USA. Ford opted to use the Tremec assembly plant in Guangzhou China for the Mustang. They had numerous issues with them under warranty. After many replacements Ford found out that some employees within the Tremec plant went to a different supplier and found cheaper parts to use meaning they'd make more money per transmission built.

Still Fords fault. They built a critical part in China with no quality people on site then wonder what happened? Completely predictable.

And they still use Tremac I think.

 

[RAVL]

Apologies in advance for the long post. This story runs into some professional experience I have.

To start, I have read a number of the news accounts (Bloomberg) and there is a lack of detail as to what the regulatory failures were. I did read that it impacts pedestrian safety tests, and that less than 2 percent of vehicles it made last year were impacted. I see that other reputable Japanese makers were involved.

Some politically incorrect observations:

Pedestrian safety standards are foolish from a cost benefit perspective. These standards stem from the moronic idea that it is appropriate to put human beings on bicycles, and pedestrians, in or close to lanes of traffic with two plus ton vehicles that are typically driving anywhere from 30 to 60 mph. If a car hits a pedestrian or bicyclist at any speed (speaking from person who was hit on my bike many years ago), the only thing that will spare you grievous injury is luck and the grace of God/. The real answer is to enforce the speed limits and enforce the distracted driver laws. Really enforce them. Today, thanks to misinformed public backlash against the police most line officers are hesitant to initiate traffic stops unless they have another patrol car as a witness and the offense is serious. This has degraded road safety tremendously in the places I live. Making cars “safer” for pedestrian impacts is akin to telling Boeing that it should make its aircraft better able to survive crashes into the ground. How about we not crash and bolt the thing together correctly in the first instance? Also, get the bikes out of the ****ed roadway/. It’s cute and endearing in Denmark but it doesn’t work here, outside of a few congested cities. If automakers have to comply with moronic standards, expect cheating from time to time. Someone show me how someone sustained actual injury (like the famous case with Ford and the exploding Pintos) and then I will care. Until then, yawn.

Secondarily, I have nothing against electric cars but the governments here and in the EU are making it almost impossible to sell a legal and useful product that the public wants. Gasoline engine emission standards are essentially stringent enough to cause the shift to electric, and diesel standards being so tight is why VW and almost every other Euro manufacturer cheated a few years ago. It was stupid from a risk and compliance perspective but again show me the consumers actually injured by their TDI Jetta wagon and until then again my reaction is akin to yawn/. (Resale is a legit issue but VW offered to buy back the cars at more than fair value.)

All a long way of saying I have learned to reserve judgment when seeing cases like this.

And for those guys bitching about the new Tundra? I say this as a Toyota fan: Toyota is not super human. Their high quality and reliable products like the old Tundra and the 4Runner are that way because they are made from components that are well tested in the market, and improved over time. Things like the GR engine have been around for a long time. Your government, in its ever eternal wisdom, wants all carmakers to hit these emissions and CAFE standards and as a result long lived, reliable and well tested motors like those
In the outgoing Tundra and 4Runner get shelved, and you get a much newer and riskier replacement. Given time, they will work out the kinks, just like Chrysler will with the new straight sixes, but the real world savings of .5 or 1mpg is worth all these problems, right? At least it seems that way to the pinhead who wrote these rules.

So for those of you wanting to throw stones, be aware that this is what it looks like when governments bombard legal businesses with tons of stupid and ill conceived regulatory requirements. Every so often the regulators wake up and want to make everyone scared, so they shoot a few prisoners.

As a consumer, I will continue to gravitate towards well tested products, judged by presence in the market for a long period of time. Nothing in these accounts this far would impact my willingness to transact with any of these companies as a consumer.

 

[Oey12]

I find the following aspect about any Toyota debate the same and beyond comical:

Many Toyota owners and potential Toyota buyers complained day in day out about how boring their vehicles are. How they were behind every “major” manufacturer in technology and advancements. Blah blah blah…

Guess what folks…your prayers have been answered because now Toyota is pumping out the S$&! most consumers wanted…. Just like the big boys…

I always viewed like Glock, nothing special to look at and very simple yet effective engineering…it got the job done reliably.

Be very careful what you ask for or pray for because it not always peaches and cream!

 

[PWMDMD]

Something not mentioned here regarding Toyota…. Do we recall the bitog conversations 4 years ago where it was observed that their growth was forcing them to adjust to much larger quantities and therefore challenges in their culture and business model? Bitog prophets forecasted that this would be a difficult time for Toyota, one that could make or break them.

Is that what we are seeing now? Business growth, through certain phases and milestones is hard, very hard. Old ways of thinking don’t always translate well as they are scaled.

I don’t think they are nearly as bad as some posts in this thread suggest. I might consider a 4R as an f150 replacement in a year or 2.

Recalling two of your halo products for a major catastrophic defect in design and/or manufacturing is about as bad as it gets. I'm still not sure how a block made in Japan and a block made in TX are having the same manufacturing issue, and if they are having the same issue on opposite sides of the world, how the GX, Sequoia, and LS aren't having the same issues?

 

[drtyler]

Recalling two of your halo products for a major catastrophic defect in design and/or manufacturing is about as bad as it gets. I'm still not sure how a block made in Japan and a block made in TX are having the same manufacturing issue, and if they are having the same issue on opposite sides of the world, how the GX, Sequoia, and LS aren't having the same issues?

Is it confirmed that the Lexus engines that have failed were made in Japan instead of Huntsville?

 

[PWMDMD]

Is it confirmed that the Lexus engines that have failed were made in Japan instead of Huntsville?

I believe the LX is still manufactured in Tahara, Japan. I can't see why they'd import these engines from the US to Japan but I'm also not 100% sure they don't.

 

[97prizm]

Diesels are inherently dirty burning. Too much soot and too much NOX which contributes to poor air quality.

It's difficult to cost effectively produce the required emissions components with a long service life. Especially when you're trying to also increase the performance of the engine.

A company in California has made and road tested a 6 cylinder twin turbo boxer diesel engine that exceeds all emissions rules for 2035. California is just being ridiculous as they want all or nothing. I think Volvo or Peterbilt has been testing a redesigned piston for diesel engines thar has shown a significant reduction in emissions and soot.

 

[JHZR2]

We are seeing a trend here. I guess it's hard to get diesels to comply with standards put forth by governments

So stupid. In the interest of small ppm of pollutants to pacify certain markets, we will spill tons of co2 and waste millions of barrels of oil.