The 10 Cars...... That Sank Detroit?

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Originally Posted By: ffracer
Yes, Hondas had carbs in the 80s. As the former owner of a 300+K 87 Accord hatchback with extra cost fuel injection, it was a great car. I had three 80s Accords.


Great cars they were. The LXi hatchbacks were sweet. Our Honda dealer always gave us an LXi 5-speed as a loaner when my Mom's '85 SEi was in for oil changes. That still stands as the best car my parents ever owned.

My two Civic Si's (86 and 91) were also fun, light, and very good on gas. We were a Honda family for a while, until my parents decided to take advantage of my brother's Ford discount. They replaced that SEi with a 93 Thunderbird LX, which immediately went into the shop for a bad A/C compressor. They didn't keep it for very long.
 
Originally Posted By: Camu Mahubah
I see the Chevy Asstro van on that list. Funny how that van has a sort of cult status among Japanese van afficianados. As if they knew it was part of the demise of the American auto industry and the rise of the Japanese manufacturer to power!

all the cable guys and contractors who use them might say differently. many, MANY of them run well past 300K. rock solid chevy 4.3, simple RWD paltform, lots of room; the imports NEVER offered anything to fill the niche of the astro/safari. it's a fantastic work van that holds up for a long time.
 
Originally Posted By: Cutehumor
I haven't been following this thread. anyone mention big SUVs yet? Why SUV sank Detroit? they put all their money into building SUVs, when the gas crunch hit, they were caught with their pants down. It's directly attributing them begging for taxpayer dollars in Washington to bail them out.


How about reading the thread? You might learn something, instead of just saying "it's the SUV's" that did it.
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Ford has updated the Taurus over the years, something we've seen on the 93, 99 and 06 models that we have. We ended up with the cars as we wanted a bench seat to seat 6, something no Japanese sedan offered, as we we didn't want an expensive, dowdy minivan and weren't willing to pay the huge premium and low fuel mileage for an SUV. The 99 has had fewer small things go wrong with it than the 93 did at the same mileage, but the dealer didn't put in a recall fix and the tranny went at 100k miles, the alternator went at 120k miles, and now it looks like I might need to replace the power steering rack at 140k miles. The 06 only has 40k miles and hasn't had any problems, similar to the others which were problem free up to 70k or so miles.

But, on to the updates. The 99 seems heavier than the 93, the engine is in better condition at 140k miles than the 93, possibly due to not using the 'obviously good 30 wt dino that shears down to 20 wt and results in oil burning' (not), but they made big improvements in rattle reduction. With the 06 it looks like they just tried to get the cost down as much as possible as the intake manifold looks like it's plastic, there is no passenger side key door lock, etc., and the car seems heavier yet with softer suspension. Too bad they didn't try to get the weight down, improve the fuel mileage, keep the cost down, and make it more reliable, as it would have been a nice transistion car while the move away from low fuel mileage vehicles, and if the cost were low enough people would consider it over the stupidly expensive Hondas and such (in Oct the F150 did a lot better on sales than the Civic or Accord).
 
Really the article should be the ten executives who sank detroit because it is really the board rooms that green light these stupid shortsighted decisions that are spiraling these makers downhill! Blacklist those names so stockholders vote 'em out wherever they try to work! ..............................................Except they get hired to another corp to bankrupt it. Then as well as getting too much compensation for doing a poor job running the corp they get a bonus when they get fired. Kind of like the politicians ruin the country yet get reelected for life [usually].
 
It's all a game... Run the company in the ground while squeezing profits into corporate bonuses etc. Then cry the blues to the Government about how many job losses their will be, get a fat hand out and more corporate bonuses and repeat as many times as possible until they catch on then sell the company for nothing to a private equity firm that lets go of lots of people anyways and turns the company around, makes some profits and then sells it to another group of greedy tycoons to repeat the process above. Quite simple really!
 
Originally Posted By: Tornado Red
Nothing currently being debated in Washington will have any real effect on the Detroit Three. All discussions revolve around whether or not to give taxpayer money to the UAW members. Workers at on-union plants won't benefit, unless the bailout is defeated.

In George Will's latest column, he includes the UAW in the Detroit Four -- and predicts that none of them will survive in their current form.
 
Just to toss in an experience with a Tempo....my folks bought one of the last ones on a dealers lot in late 1994. Red 4-cyl. auto sedan. It was a decent deal, they were trying at that point just to get rid of them.

They drove it daily for 8 years and 110k miles, mostly short-trip city driving. It hardly had any problems beyond normal wear and tear. Tranny started to slip at about 6-7 years old, and had to be 'adjusted' at a local tranny shop, and it leaked a bit of oil, but beyond that, it was perfectly reliable. It also hardly had any rust on it, w/o any treatment of any kind.

It really suprised me as a car, it was very peepy off a stop light, and it was fairly comfortable. They were getting rid of it just as I was looking for another car in 2002; I should have saved myself some money and bought it off them, it was a good car! One of my big 'car regrets'!
 
Originally Posted By: mrsilv04
Originally Posted By: Cutehumor
I haven't been following this thread. anyone mention big SUVs yet? Why SUV sank Detroit? they put all their money into building SUVs, when the gas crunch hit, they were caught with their pants down. It's directly attributing them begging for taxpayer dollars in Washington to bail them out.


How about reading the thread? You might learn something, instead of just saying "it's the SUV's" that did it.
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I read part of the thread where people were mentioning cars built 30 years ago aka Chevy Vega. I learned about it alright.
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So your saving the high gas prices didn't hurt the big 3 at all? All those SUVs sitting parked at dealerships didn't have anything to do with it?
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Over at Yahoo, the news headline is "Auto executives still spend $20,000 on private jet flights — even as they plead for a bailout."

With CEO teams doing this stunt at this stage of their financial issues. Such rapid cash burn should not be a big surprise to anyone. No common sense with some CEOs.... seems like one of the biggest issues past and present with the management team.
 
Ever here the saying that time is money. I mean which do you want your ceo sitting at an airport for 2 hours getting very little work done or working up to the point where he drives to the plane and gets right on. At which point he breaks out what ever he was working on before and start working on it again. Then lands grabs his bag instead of waiting 30 minutes to come out and gets in the car and goes where he needs to go.

Right there one way saves 4 and a half to 5 hours. Then ontop of that consider security means.
 
Whats wrong with getting up earlier like the rest of us and sitting in Traffic or taking regular transit? That's whats wrong with these people... They aren't on the same level so they can't possible understand!
 
What I find most frustrating about the current situation is that the domestics demonstrate with some models that they are capable of building good cars that people want to buy for other than patriotic reasons, but have still foisted so much junk on the market.

My experience of the past 10 years or so is that after way too many suspension repairs, electrical gremlins, and tranny problems on two Sables and a Windstar, I decided to try a 2004 Accord. At 60K I love the Accord, but I still wish that Ford had refined the Taurus over the years into a car that I would prefer to an Accord. And I hope they keep working on the Fusion, and that Chevy keeps working on the Malibu. Both are good starts, albeit many years later than they should have come.

One issue that I don't think has been discussed enough is the care that goes into design. If you just list features of the Taurus/Sable (prior model, not the new rebadged 500) against the Accord, they would come out about the same, and if you list features of the new Malibu it looks better than the Accord or Camry. If you bring the Fusion into the picture it would be about the same on features. But look carefully at how they are put together.

I am sure there are some examples to the contrary, but when I work on my Accord, most of the time I come away impressed by the design, the simplicity and functionality. It just seems more well thought out than the domestic counterparts. The engine bay of my Accord looks neat and well organized, and is easy to work on (except changing the oil filter - Honda messed up on that one). I rented a Fusion a few months ago, and the engine bay looked a mess. Sure it ran fine, but it looked cobbled together, rather than thoughtfully designed.

The body work provides another example. My Accord got hit in the left front about a year ago and I had the body work done at a Chevy and Honda dealer. The body shop manager told me that it takes typically about 2-3 times as long to remove the front quarter panel on a Chevy than on a Honda. Does that mean the Honda panels are flimsy and about to fall off? No - it means that the Honda designers put more thought into how to attach the quarter panel.

I still remember vividly my first exposure to Japanese cars around 1970 when car shopping with my father. I was accustomed to domestic cars with cables and lines strapped to the bottom of the car every which way, and hanging down in awkward locations. I crawled under a Japanese car in the showroom (I think it was the Mitsubishi built Colt) and saw a neatly constructed cable/line tray recessed into the floor panel, and no hanging cables. I was astonished, but also started to wonder why it was so much more thoughtfully designed than the domestic (and European at the time) cars.

Since I really can't believe that the Japanese engineers were/are more talented than the US engineers, I suspect it was some component of management that just did not give the engineers the time/budget to take as much care. The domestic cars gave the impression that the instructions to the engineers were to just make it work, don't refine it to make it better.

This may be all way off base, but these are the impressions I have developed over the years.

With only 60K on my Accord, I don't expect to be buying another car for probably about 10 years. By then, or hopefully before then, I would love for the domestic mainstream sedans to be the leaders that Honda and Toyota are chasing, rather than the other way around. My concern with bankruptcy is that the current management will be able to stay in place and continue current practices - and that survival will be related to lower costs only, not to better products. I don't know if congress can structure anything better through a bailout, but at least there is the possibility of leverage to create management changes, not just lower costs.
 
I'm sure the US could dictate to the world in terms of Quality, Innovation and design, but the US Economy (and Canada), runs mainly on the Auto-Industry. If the Domestic cars lasted as long as the Japanese ones currently do, the Automakers would have gone bankrupt a long time ago, so what they did was cheapen the quality and try to make money through dealerships. The problem is the economy is lean today and people are always looking to get the most out of their money and choose Japanese etc. The reason the Japanese haven't worried about their cars lasting too long is because they are still in the stage of converting everyone who currently owns a domestic over to their brand. Once this happens then they will be forced to do the same things that the Big-3 have done and are experiencing now. It's inevitable because the market is too saturated with technology that lasts longer than it takes to reproduce replacements... It all happened before with the Appliance industry, ask your elders like I did my dad!
 
I'm not reading all 4 pages here, so I might say something that gets said.

The Olds Silhouette did NOT have the first driver's side sliding door. The 1996 Chrysler minivans did. What the Olds got first was the first POWER passenger side sliding door.

The J-cars, Taurus/Sable, and Astro/Safari sold VERY well. Even the [censored] Chevy Corsica sold 150K units every year until it was replaced by the Malibu. The only reason GM did not redesign the Corsica was because they couldn't meet side door impact standards.

The Tempo/Topaz was not the best platform, but I enjoyed my 86 and 93 5-speeds very much, thank you. I paid $400 for the '86 sedan in 1997 and put 25K miles on it in about a year, replacing several tires and one fuel pump in that time, and I gave it to an ex-girlfriend in trade for her wrecked Scirocco. I paid $200 for the '93 coupe on eBay in 2000, ran 10K on it in a few months, and sold it for $700.

The Explorer was not bad, either. It was cheap, simple, and sold hundreds of thousands of units. Oh, they still make them? With independent suspension and 5-speed automatics? And the resale value is horrendous? Sign me up for a used '02 for my wife. Gee, here's one with 70K on it for $5500. I'm so there!
 
No car or model sunk Detroit.

The executives there sunk their own ship. They lacked the foresight, the cunning, the forethought to see the horizon. All the idiots saw was the big profits for each Expedition, Tahoe, etc being sold. It never occured to the idiots that gas may not stay cheap forever.

Someone early wrote they could not blame GM for selling the very profitable Tahoe...how short sided, to be sure.

One could also argue that one other cause of GM's problems is that too many consumers bought their crud just because their crud was "American". This is akin to parents bailing their 21 year old son out of jail countless times...it only enables bad behavior, and year after year of really bad reviews, you got this part of the US population that continues to buy the [censored] American cars, and NO MATTER WHAT!
 
Remember economy isn't always about the MPG number. We have a 1988 Suburban with a 454 that gets 10mpg no matter how you drive it. But we only use it when there are more than five of us going anywhere. It will be replaced with a newer (95-99) 350-powered Suburban at some point, and we'll get 15mpg or so, but until then, it's the most efficient way to travel. The next best thing would be to drive two small cars everywhere. A pair of small sedans could get 30mpg average, returning the equivalent of 15mpg when both are driven. If my wife was willing to drive a standard, we could get two 03-08 5-speed Corolla sedans, getting 40mpg each, and average 20mpg together. But that's being foolish, as insurance, maintenance, and other costs would add up and make the fuel usage difference unimportant.

SUV's serve a purpose, it's just too bad Americans generally do not use their SUV's for maximum capacity all the time. I blame manufacturers for only one fault in this, and that is offering mid-sized 5-passenger SUV's. Put in a third row (7-8 passenger) or make the customer buy a sedan. Sheesh.
 
The first Pintos with the German built 2.0 with Weber carb and 4 speed were decent cars. Yes they should have placed the fuel tank better, but overall for price/performance and reliability, the 2.0 was a good car.
 
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