"Synthetics" that contain no PAO or Esters

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To the best of my knowledge, this question hasn't been posed like this here on BITOG. If it has, sorry
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So are there any 100% Group III oils?

I suspect most PP and Syntec grades are. Is it possible to have a 0w oil without blending in some PAO or Esters?
 
Originally Posted By: sangyup81
To the best of my knowledge, this question hasn't been posed like this here on BITOG. If it has, sorry
whistle.gif


So are there any 100% Group III oils?

I suspect most PP and Syntec grades are. Is it possible to have a 0w oil without blending in some PAO or Esters?


I believe an 0wXX oil implies some amount of PAO or Esters.

100% Group III... only the blenders would know for sure.
 
There must be some but Pennzoil Platinum is not one of them. There is some PAO and ester content in every grade. Same holds true for the Quaker State synthetics.
 
Just a guess here (sorry), but I believe it would be cost prohibitive to refine to that degree and achieving thermal stability would be difficult. I think the ad pack would have to be even larger, so you would have even less of your desired grp III. This is just speculation, and I hope one of the tribologists or experts can comment on this.
 
Yes you can make 0W-X oils with just a good quality Grp III and no PAO or ester - see:

http://www.imakenews.com/lng/e_article001477145.cfm?x=bfKHvS8,bd28TMM

Most companies do not disclose what base oil mix they use, so without analysis we can only speculate.

Tom NJ
 
Originally Posted By: sangyup81

Is it possible to have a 0w oil without blending in some PAO or Esters?


Sure....Royal Purple
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I'm just wondering what your supicions would be. It should be very possible as I've seen Synthetic Blends with VIs in the 160s
 
Originally Posted By: sangyup81
I'm just wondering what your supicions would be. It should be very possible as I've seen Synthetic Blends with VIs in the 160s



and those probably have VII's
 
Originally Posted By: Tom NJ
Yes you can make 0W-X oils with just a good quality Grp III and no PAO or ester - see:

http://www.imakenews.com/lng/e_article001477145.cfm?x=bfKHvS8,bd28TMM

Most companies do not disclose what base oil mix they use, so without analysis we can only speculate.

Tom NJ


So it appears that 0w30 and anything with greater ranges need PAO hmmm
 
Originally Posted By: sangyup81
Originally Posted By: Tom NJ
Yes you can make 0W-X oils with just a good quality Grp III and no PAO or ester - see:

http://www.imakenews.com/lng/e_article001477145.cfm?x=bfKHvS8,bd28TMM

Most companies do not disclose what base oil mix they use, so without analysis we can only speculate.

Tom NJ


So it appears that 0w30 and anything with greater ranges need PAO hmmm


Or maybe just Group III and VI improvers?
 
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The esters in Mobil 1 are "no more".. One of the evolutionary changes was the elimination of the ester portion of the formulation (needed for additive solubility, natural detergency, seal swell). Thus Mobil 1 is essentially all PAO now, enabled through the magic of chemistry; even superior performance without the negative aspects of the ester ."
Regarding the supposed advantages of ester in Mobil 1: it was merely a balancing of chemistries to achieve an end. It has always been a goal to eliminate or minimize the ester "blend". As previously indicated, esters are *very* hygroscopic[ don"t worry the answer to hygroscopic is in the next sentence] . The last thing we need in an oil formulation is a component drawing water into the fluid, which is what esters do.. Esters are very reactive. (i.e. the natural detergency, seal swell, additive hold). So the real chemical breakthrough was the ability to have a homogeneous chemistry that enabled all the positive aspects of ester without the drawbacks: which is exactly what has taken place [with the new supersyn no Ester Mobil 1] . And performance-wise, which has always been the Mobil standard, no compromise: just the opposite, increased performance in every parameter.
 
Originally Posted By: Izb
As previously indicated, esters are *very* hygroscopic


That's a generalization. Tom NJ and Roy Howell both say high molecular weight esters aren't very hygroscopic at all.
 
I cannot speak for the UK, but many Mobil 1 formlations in the USA and the far east are known to contain alkylated naphthenes and Group 3 base oils in addition to PAO. The percentages of mineral oil (probably Group III+) are even stated on the MSDSs in Japan (see: http://www.msds.exxonmobil.com/psims/Alt...umentFormat=RTF) Clearly ExxonMobil now consider Group III base oils to meet their definition of "synthetic". Three years ago I also saw a very small amount of POE still remaining in one grade.

The types of POEs used in motor oils are not very hygroscopic unless they are very dry. If the water content is demulsibility (shedding of free water) in air compressor oils. Their water properties are not an issue in motor oils.

Esters are very thermally and oxidatively stable products. Their detergency, solvency, and seal swell properties come from their polarity and are considered desireable characteristics, especially in counteracting the seal shrinking and poor solubility tendencies of PAOs. Some of the finest synthetics, e.g. Redline, continue to use very high levels of esters in their motor oils without issues.

Tom NJ
 
Question for you Tom concerning esters and their alleged hygroscopic qualities. From reading your above post I understand that you do not see the esters currently used in motor oils as having any issue with hygroscopicity in normal automotive service. My question concerns what might be considered "abnormal service" - specifically a collector car that is garaged between late fall and early spring. The garage is well protected but not climate controlled. Would you anticipate any issues with hygroscopic water accumulation during these periods when the car is not being cranked and run up to operating temperature? I'm using Redline in my car and one of the features that drew me to it was the high ester content. It is my understanding that the highly polar nature of most esters causes them to maintain thin films on metal surfaces for extended periods of time, an attribute which would seem useful in a car that might sit idle from 4 months before being cranked. Is hygroscopicity any greater of an issue in this case?

Thanks,

Scott
 
Hi Scott,

I would not expect any problems with Redline in this service from hygroscopicity or hydrolysis. The oil will reach an equilibrium with respect to water content which would be well below their solubility capacity. You may want to ask the same question to Roy or Dave at Redline since they know their formulations and have decades of experience with them, but I would not expect a different answer.

Tom NJ
 
Tom,

One more question if you don't mind. My project car is an late 50's air cooled VW. Being an air cooled (really air *and* oil cooled) engine the oil temperatures tend to run a bit hotter than most water cooled engines. A second reason I went with Redline 0W30 is that it is predominately ester based and from what I have read esters have superior high temperature properties. Would you think that Redline 0W30 would be a good match for an air cooled application?

Thanks,

Scott
 
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