Elf Tech Team - PAO vs Ester

MolaKule · Jul 18, 2006

Some of the info is inaccurate and may be due to translation.

Thermal stability-wise and shear stable-wise, polyol esters and complex esters rank the highest. They are more polar than PAO's.

Any ester alone or any PAO alone will not be sufficient to work as a lubricant.

One must add the appropriate additives to enhance the base oil for a specific application.

No more generalities please.

A discussion of a seal test is found on page 2 of this thread:

http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=21;t=000058;p=2

As was stated in this thread, dispersants have can more of a dimensional effect on seals than do synthetic ester base fluids.

GROUCHO MARX · Jul 18, 2006

I know buster tries. He should research things that can make him money.

MolaKule · Jul 18, 2006

quote:

they use several esters per oil.

Are they using different types of esters or just different viscosities of the same type of ester?

There is a difference.

buster · Jul 19, 2006

Mola, from what I was told, they use different types of esters. In fact, he told me they chose very "aggressive" esters for their oils. The guy I spoke with was extremely nice and informative, mucch more so than any other tech department I've dealt with.

He made a point that you can probably find an ester for any application that will be adventagous to any PAO ex. Artic cold to High Temp. Also said engines stay extremely clean, beyond any PAO based oil.

He did not knock any brand of oil either, saying that their are many good/well formulated PAO based oils, but that for the absolute best performance, with cost being of no concern, their products are better.

MGBV8 · Jul 19, 2006

On the contrary, the
attraction of the Ester molecule to the metal will slow that “hydrodynamic” phenomenon and may cost
horsepower.

Is there a link between this and higher HTHS as HTHS increases when comparing Silkolene, Motul and Redkine

buster · Jul 19, 2006

"may" rob HP. I would think that the manufacture dino's their oils against the competition. ?? After speaking with Maxima, I'd feel very confident in using their products, however, my car and driving conditions don't call that type of oil. It is an interesting concept....

buster · Dec 31, 2006

Quote:

The attraction of the oil to the metal is no longer needed at high speed, when hydrodynamic
lubrication is protecting the metal (the equivalent of “aquaplaning” in your engine). On the contrary, the
attraction of the Ester molecule to the metal will slow that “hydrodynamic” phenomenon and may cost
horsepower. At high speed, the resistance to high temperature and to foaming that PAO provides is more
important than the low-speed lubricity provided by some esters.

This idea put forward by the Elf PDF that was sent to me, (we all agreed it was poorly written) is interesting. Elf's F1 oils are 80% PAO. Clearly a different school of thought here than other oils such as RL and Maxima. At the F1 level, it's not about cost Terry so I don't think what you said really is that accurate.

Gene K · Dec 31, 2006

Quote:

...PAO derived ester add pack...

Anyone care to explain how such a thing could be done. I dont believe you could make Ester from PAO.
Did you mean a PAO with ester-like qualities?

tdi-rick · Dec 31, 2006

nope, an ester derived from a PAO.
Here's a PAO derived co-oligomer http://www.mitsuichemicals.com/luc.htm

Tom NJ · Dec 31, 2006

There are no esters derived from PAO. The Lucant product in your link is a pure hydrocarbon and has no ester linkages. It is a co-oligomer of ethylene and alphaolefins.

Tom

Gene K · Dec 31, 2006

Quote:

nope, an ester derived from a PAO.
Here's a PAO derived co-oligomer http://www.mitsuichemicals.com/luc.htm

That is ethylenealphaolefin (EAO) not an Ester.

buster · Dec 31, 2006

Quote:

From Motul Web page:

Question:
- Do Esters in oils swell seals or is this just a rumour. Safe for motors, gearboxes etc,?

Answer:
- Yes you are correct they do swell seals. But nobody makes a full ester oil anyway. It is usually mixed with other base stocks i.e. PAO (Group 4) or Hydrocracked (Group 5) which reduces seal swell. Ester are very expensive and really anything more than 25% really provides little advantage.

So Motul is selling 100% Ester based oils, but then are saying more than 25% is worthless?

#@$%!?

Primus · Dec 31, 2006

Happy New Year ! Health, happyness, good luck and prosperity to all of you and your families !

Buster,
Biodegradability of previous generation 300V 5W-40 has pushed me to re-read this topic at Motul Web page I had cited some time ago. Think this answer was not from Motul Tech Service, but from a reader. The appoach could be valid for a number of compositions, but not biodegradable oils. Using 25 % of esters only it is hardly possible to reach a required level of biodegradability.

buster · Jan 12, 2007

Quote:

Thank you for calling regarding our position on Group III, PAO and Ester base stocks.

As I mentioned to you there is a lot of miss represented information out there regarding the use of “The Best Base Oils” used in automotive applications.

We try to deal in fact. What the truth is. All these base oils have a fit. One is not better than the other. You need to consider the application and the cost one wishes to spend on an oil. Our HTX Racing oils can go as high as $28.00 + per liter. Here again you don’t want to put this product in a consumer vehicle. There are many variables and all of them need to be considered to match the application and at what cost is acceptable.

Attached are a few documents which may help you clarify what is reality and what is not.

One small fact: Our Formula 1 cars use a PAO based oil. These V10 engines (V8 in 2007) go from 0 to 21,000 RPM in very stressed conditions. ELF has won both the constructors and pilots championship the last two years (2005 & 2006). Our Formula 1 racing technology goes back over 30+ years back to the Jackie Stewart days.

Visit the www.ElfOils.us website for updates on new literature from time to time. A lot more needs to be uploaded.

Automotive Division
TOTAL Lubricants USA, Inc.

Quote:

c. The attraction of the oil to the metal is no longer needed at high speed, when hydrodynamic
lubrication is protecting the metal (the equivalent of “aquaplaning” in your engine). On the contrary, the
attraction of the Ester molecule to the metal will slow that “hydrodynamic” phenomenon and may cost
horsepower. At high speed, the resistance to high temperature and to foaming that PAO provides is more
important than the low-speed lubricity provided by some esters.

Quote:

On the contrary, the
attraction of the Ester molecule to the metal will slow that “hydrodynamic” phenomenon and may cost
horsepower.

Is there a link between this and higher HTHS as HTHS increases when comparing Silkolene, Motul and Redkine

Could be. That is a good question. HotRod magazine a few months ago put Redline 5w-20 in a Mustang GT and it showed no Hp gains over MC 5w-20. Contrary to what I have been led to believe, I think there might be something to what Elf is saying. The big oil companies have a lot of R&D and work very closely with F1 racing teams so I tend to agree with what they say.

MGBV8ROADSTER · Jan 12, 2007

Buster

What were the attached documents?

I would have thought esters were better at high temps and foaming?

With data and control over temperature and viscosity

buster · Jan 12, 2007

MG, Elf sent me a PDF on Esters vs PAO. They have the belief that it's not as simple to say "esters are superior to any other base oil" rather each base oil brings something good to the table and that a balanced mix is your best bet.

Total manufactures esters much like XOM, but through their research they have found PAO's with some ester offer the best performance. Their F1 racing oils are majority PAO as stated above. M1 R is also majority PAO.

jdean · Jan 12, 2007

Esters will provide some amazing results. Too much ester can be harmful to seals. The trick is to use the right amount so they (seals) maintain their original size. 25% is overkill.

buster · Jan 13, 2007

Quote:

Esters will provide some amazing results. Too much ester can be harmful to seals. The trick is to use the right amount so they (seals) maintain their original size. 25% is overkill.

Most of the top tier synthetics are all PAO/Ester blends. They amount of each base oil varies depending on the chemist, application and cost.

Elf's F1 oils are majority PAO as are Mobil's. The only majority Ester based oils I'm aware of are Motul (some), Redline and Maxima. However, some of the other brands do make high ester based 2 stroke oils. For auto racing the best approach seems to be a PAO/Ester blend.

Elf will tell you that anything more than 20% ester is not worth it. Does nothing to improve the product. It's probably the opinion of the chemist but this view does seem to be shared by most of the big oil companies who manufacture and produce all of these base oils.

Doc8404 · Feb 22, 2007

MGBV8ROADSTER · Feb 22, 2007

Mola's post re future on oils indicated bio oils and complex esters

http://www.hub-4.com/news/108/guide-...egradable-oils

http://www.peaksandprairies.com/bio-...-products.html

http://www.innovene.com/liveassets/bp_in...ration_PAOs.pdf
PAOs may offer some biodegradability so may be difficult to judge ester content on this basis.

My understanding was that Silkolene and Motul were approx 20+% but both Motul and the Fuchs GT1 may be more.

Elf Tech Team - PAO vs Ester

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