What if...? A German Syntec question

[G-MAN]

The more I've been mulling over this, the more I'm inclined to think that Castrol Formula SLX 0w30 (sold in the US as Syntec "Made in Germany") is PROBABLY a Group III/Group V (esters) blend. (Shell went this route with it's Helix Ultra 0w40, using XHVI, PAO, and esters for the base oil blend.) I'm only theorizing here, but I'm sure the Castrol 0w30's extraordianry pour point could still be achieved with a blend of roughly 20%-30% Group III (so long as it was a wax isomerate) and the rest Group V esters.

So, here's my question: If this were the case, and you found out for sure that the German Syntec was a Group III/Group V blend and not a Group IV (PAO)/Group V blend, would your opinion of the oil be affected?

(As for me, it wouldn't.)

 

[YZF150]

Maybe they need that 20% Group III to dissolve all of those calcium salts!

A UOA is a UOA.

 

[cangreylegend]

how about a 3 1/2 and 5?

 

[pscholte]

G-Man,

My brain says, "If it works, it works, whatever the chemical consitutents,"

but my "heart" wouldn't be happy.

It wants German Castrol to be Grp IV/Grp V all the way. After the fuss we (moi included) have made over this stuff it had better be a little "exotic."

 

[Chris Jefferson]

im sorry but, although i would like this to be a PAO/Ester blend syn oil, even if it were a 20% or 30% GroupIII and the rest Group IV oil, I would still be THRILLED to be able to purchase a predeominantly ester based oil for $5 a quart. Heck NEO is $10 a quart, Redline is like $7 and Motul is around the $8 mark as well. Although, i do NOT think this oil is a PAO/ester blend.

I think that its more likely a GroupIII and PAO blend. prolly about 10-20% GroupIII and the rest PAO and addititves. I think that the carrier oil is w/out a doubt, groupIII. or maybe even a group I or II.

 

[G-MAN]

quote:

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Originally posted by Chris Jefferson:
I think that its more likely a GroupIII and PAO blend. prolly about 10-20% GroupIII and the rest PAO and addititves. I think that the carrier oil is w/out a doubt, groupIII. or maybe even a group I or II.

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It's already been established that it would be IMPOSSIBLE for this oil to be a Group III/PAO blend since it has a pour point of -81°F. This fact alone means the predominant base oil component is ester(s).

As for the additive carrier oil being Group III, that too would be impossible. Group III solvency is as poor as PAO and it simply can't be used as an additve carrier oil for that reason. If the additive carrier were a mineral oil, it would have to be Group I. But that's doubtful as well, since esters are now what is used as the additive carrier in most preimum synthetic oils.

 

[Yuk]

quote:

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....since it has a pour point of -81°F.

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Where did this figure come from? The bottle states; "Castrol Syntec 0w30 has an exceptional low-temperature formulation which provides exceptional pumpability in cold weather and allows for unaided engine starts down to -40ºC." Even if there is dramatic difference between a pour point and pumpability an oil with a -81ºF pour point should be pumpable way below -40ºC....Shouldn't it?

 

[Jay]

There has been a lot of speculation about what this oil has for basestocks and not much proof to back it up. For example, it has been said that it has mostly ester basestocks because of it's low pour point, but there are PAOs that have lower temperature working limits than polyol, dibasic acid, polyglycol, or phosphate esters.

There's so much consumer confusion about what basestocks we're getting for our money that there needs to be a law. Every oil sold should state plainly on the label what basestocks are in it and in order according to percentage. I'm not asking oil companies to reveal their formulations in detail. A food company has to list the ingredients in a muffin and list them in order. Oil companies should do the same with their basestocks.

 

[Patman]

quote:

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Originally posted by Yuk:

quote:

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....since it has a pour point of -81°F.

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Where did this figure come from? The bottle states; "Castrol Syntec 0w30 has an exceptional low-temperature formulation which provides exceptional pumpability in cold weather and allows for unaided engine starts down to -40ºC." Even if there is dramatic difference between a pour point and pumpability an oil with a -81ºF pour point should be pumpable way below -40ºC....Shouldn't it?

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The pour point comes from the European Castrol sites, which list it at -61C (which is -81F)

My opinion of this oil still wouldn't change if I knew it had group 3 in it, as three of the things I like about it so far in UOAs are it's ability to stay very close to it's original viscosity (which is a nice thick 30wt to begin with!), it's ability to hold it's TBN well, and it's very low lead wear. Besdies, an oil can be made very well with group 3, just look at Schaeffer Supreme 5w30, which is 70-75% group 3 and 20-25% PAO.

The only thing that worries me is the high lead in GMan's VOA, however that could be from one small batch, and other VOAs may show no iron at all. The latest UOA showed only 7ppm of iron after 5k, so obviously this batch started out with little or no iron.

Yes, we do talk about this oil a lot, and some of you are probably sick of it, but truth be told, it's a very good oil. Even without moly or boron.

[ July 24, 2003, 06:17 AM: Message edited by: Patman ]

 

[G-MAN]

quote:

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Originally posted by Yuk:
Where did this figure come from? The bottle states; "Castrol Syntec 0w30 has an exceptional low-temperature formulation which provides exceptional pumpability in cold weather and allows for unaided engine starts down to -40ºC." Even if there is dramatic difference between a pour point and pumpability an oil with a -81ºF pour point should be pumpable way below -40ºC....Shouldn't it?

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The Castrol site says the oil is good for "unaided" starts down to -40°. That would indicate that the oil has borderline pumping temp of around -60°F.

 

[Chris A]

quote:

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Originally posted by G-Man II:
The more I've been mulling over this, the more I'm inclined to think that Castrol Formula SLX 0w30 (sold in the US as Syntec "Made in Germany") is PROBABLY a Group III/Group V (esters) blend.

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Doesn't Europe disallow Group III oils from being called "synthetic"? If so, it blows a big hole in your theory.

 

[Dr. T]

Not just that, I thought that in Germany you weren't allowed to call a Group III synthetic, but rather it needed to be labelled as HC (hydrocracked). Since this oil is from Germany, it is a PAO. And finally, someone here received a reply from Castrol (wonder if it was me

) saying that yes indeed the 0-30 is a PAO because "we found PAO's to have better cold flow properties and were hence ideal for a 0-30 grade".

 

[Ken2]

quote:

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Originally posted by Chris A:

quote:

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Originally posted by G-Man II:
The more I've been mulling over this, the more I'm inclined to think that Castrol Formula SLX 0w30 (sold in the US as Syntec "Made in Germany") is PROBABLY a Group III/Group V (esters) blend.

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Doesn't Europe disallow Group III oils from being called "synthetic"? If so, it blows a big hole in your theory.

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Maybe so, but don't these have a North American label on the bottle?


Ken

[ July 24, 2003, 10:49 AM: Message edited by: Ken2 ]

 

[G-MAN]

quote:

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Originally posted by Chris A:
Doesn't Europe disallow Group III oils from being called "synthetic"? If so, it blows a big hole in your theory.

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As long as an oil is PREDOMINATELY PAO or ester, it will be labeled "full synthetic" in Europe. Shell's Helix Ultra is proof of that. It has Shell's XHVI (Group III) in the base oil blend, but is mostly Group IV and V. When the base oil blend is mostly Group III (as in Mobil's System-S), you won't see "full synthetic" on the label.

[ July 24, 2003, 11:24 AM: Message edited by: G-Man II ]

 

[SteveD2]

We need to compare each UOA on this oil to the base line established for each vehicle. Did this oil perform better or the same as the previous 2-3 analysis with a previous oil?
With Castrol's history of changing the Group of oil internally and not the label makes me a faithful user of another established brand. I prefer to get the product that I pay for.

 

[Dr. T]

Yeah, but just so that the bottles and label resemble the other ones on the shelf. Otherwise, the stuff fits the description of SLX 0-30...green and all. Why bother changing anything. Just import in drums, bottle and sell.

 

[G-MAN]

quote:

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Originally posted by Dr. T:
And finally, someone here received a reply from Castrol (wonder if it was me

) saying that yes indeed the 0-30 is a PAO because "we found PAO's to have better cold flow properties and were hence ideal for a 0-30 grade".

---

I considered what you'd posted from Castrol in my "theory." However, I tend to take the person's comments with a grain of salt. In my experience, most of these "tech line" people wouldn't know the difference between PAO and esters, and if you started talking about an actual BLEND of base oils (PAO, esters, and Group III), they'd be completely lost.

 

[cangreylegend]

As far as the labelling goes, the fact that it is made in Germany and is labelled synthetic does not ensure that European labelling requirements are met. You may have forgotten to read something to the effect " Only for sale in North America". The underlying reason could be that if sold in Germany it would not comply with laws there. - Just a thought.

 

[G-MAN]

quote:

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Originally posted by pscholte:
I wasn't going to bring this up, but since Castrol has given cause for concern in the past about the way they market things and given the things expressed in this thread....on the top of my case of German Castrol is a little box bordered in red ("Warning, Will Robinson, Warning") that looks like what those little surgeon general warning boxes on cigarettes. It says:

No license is granted or is implied by the sale of this package or contained in relation to any trade mark owned by Castrol Limited anywhere in the world outside North America.

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Gee...I knew that intelectual property course I took in law school would come in handy some day.

What this is saying in legalize is that if you are a retailer or wholesaler and you buy this stuff and try to sell it outside of North America, you're violating Castrol's trademark rights. The "Syntec" trademark is licensed to retailers only for sale in North America.

 

[pscholte]

Thanks G-Man,

If you don't watch out, with the abundant and eclectic knowledge you possess, I am going to start thinking of you as a true Rennaissance Man!