Why use "fake" synthetic instead of PAO/Ester?

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Few recent threads about synthetic vs. conventional got me thinking. Some make the argument that the oil is the life blood of the engine so why skimp on oil? Or that if you want the engine to last, why not use the best? And that the price difference is so minimal. In that vein, why take half measures? PAO and ester oils are clearly superior to Group III, so if the above arguments are true for people making them, why use the "fake" synthetics? Surely PAO and ester can be a better blood for the engine and provide longer life just for a little bit more money, right?
 

CT8

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Superior in what way? If they were so superior all the commercial operators or expensive equipment would use nothing but the paos and gp V oils exclusively. The cost of the engines alone in a semi truck costs more that most of our vehicles we drive. Just think of the cost of the big mining truck engines ? High speed diesel boat engines?
 
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Originally Posted By: KrisZ
PAO and ester oils are clearly superior to Group III
Not necessarily.
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
so if the above arguments are true for people making them, why use the "fake" synthetics?
No one really knows what oils use what base oils.
 
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I use "fake" synthetics because I believe they are better than conventional oils. I also think they are %99 as good as real synthetics. That %1 does not justify the price increase in my mind. I am sure everyone has their own opinion and real world tests are few and far between so opinion will vary.
 
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You are "an experiment of one". Take your pick. There are so many choices. And so many methods for making a choice. Do you like the marketing, the pretty bottle or maybe your choice was on sale. And if that isn't enough, there are the better than real life additives in a bottle that you can add to your oil. The problem is that once you've made your choice you must then recuse yourself from any future discussion about which oil is best because you are in the position of having a conflict of interest in the outcome. This is especially true if your position is not supported by any evidence. I'm the worst offender in all this. I use a synthetic 0w-30 in a Honda Civic that's 30 years old. I won't tell you the exact brand name but it has to do with a "line" that's "red". My excuse. I purchased the Civic new and I plan to drive it to my own funeral and I like this oil. I change it too often and I use a NAPA gold oil filter. I paid cash for this car and after owning it a few years realized that I never want to sell it. I am an experiment of one.
 
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Originally Posted By: KrisZ
In that vein, why take half measures? PAO and ester oils are clearly superior to Group III,
I think that claim is overstated. Group III actually has some advantages over the others (additive solubility , for example). That's why almost all oils contain fractions of different base stock group types, even if one base or the other dominates a particular product line.
 
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Truck has 340k miles car I junked a few months ago had 289k. I don't know if I can afford to keep up maintaince on a long lasting vehicle lol. On a side note they only use conventional 5-7.5k mile oci
 
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What I object to is the US govt allowing highly refined dino oil to be considered "synthetic".Instead it should be called "Heavily Engineered" oil.
 
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Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Wow... BITOG is on a roll today.
+1
Sure is. Just waiting now for ARCO to show up here..... popcorn2
 
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As a follower of this site you should know by now that base stock blends are as good as or better than oils that are all PAO or ester. Also I can't think of any engine oil that is all PAO or ester. Maybe RL on ester, but it doesn't seem to protect engines any better.
 
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Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Few recent threads about synthetic vs. conventional got me thinking. Some make the argument that the oil is the life blood of the engine so why skimp on oil? Or that if you want the engine to last, why not use the best? And that the price difference is so minimal. In that vein, why take half measures? PAO and ester oils are clearly superior to Group III, so if the above arguments are true for people making them, why use the "fake" synthetics? Surely PAO and ester can be a better blood for the engine and provide longer life just for a little bit more money, right?
Someone paying you to stirr this pot, or are you a tr0ll with nothing else to do? When the companies using "synthetic" as factory fill clearly state that Group III is not good enough then we'll have a good technical discussion on our hands which will not include the scientific term "fake".
 
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Originally Posted By: NHGUY
What I object to is the US govt allowing highly refined dino oil to be considered "synthetic".Instead it should be called "Heavily Engineered" oil.
How, exactly, is the government involved with SAE oil ratings?
 
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I love how when this question comes up... 'GrpIII is only 1% worse or just as good as PAO' etc. But when the benefits of say, M1 AFE or M1 EP is discussed, the reason most point to as to thier supremacy is that, 'it has ~30% (AFE) or ~70% (EP) GrpIV. Its ok for some of the GrpIII users 'that want the best for the lifeblood of their engine' to say, PAO isnt worth the extra expense over a GrpIII, BUT it's not ok for the conventional crowd to say GrpIII isnt worth the extra expense over PYB, VWB etc. This is addressed to a few, not most bitogers.
 
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I just hit the middle ground and use a motor oil that is both Group III and Group IV and get the best of both worlds. And do it at substantially lower cost. But truth be told, the best PAO is going to be lousy with a sorry additive package. And a "mediocre" (per the OP) Group III can be a tremendous oil when combined with a killer add pack. Why folks place so much of their worries on the base oil is a mystery. It is a package deal when it comes to motor oils.... base oil plus add pack.
 
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Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
I just hit the middle ground and use a motor oil that is both Group III and Group IV and get the best of both worlds. And do it at substantially lower cost. But truth be told, the best PAO is going to be lousy with a sorry additive package. And a "mediocre" (per the OP) Group III can be a tremendous oil when combined with a killer add pack. Why folks place so much of their worries on the base oil is a mystery. It is a package deal when it comes to motor oils.... base oil plus add pack.
I agree. Someone posted a link not long ago where the paper was about different basestocks and what's required of the additive package when a large percentage of PAO is used. It went on to say that pao is a poor lubricator and requires a very well thought out additive package that works synergistically together because of pao's poor additive solubility. Pao is great in extreme cold but how many out there really experience -40. I don't feel the extra expense is worth it in my personal application. I'd love to use redline exclusively or even Amsoil however I cannot justify the cost.
 
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I've learned something from this thread - people from Toronto are called "Torontonians". I never knew that.
 
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Do you have a link to that paper? Very interested. I've heard about PAO & Ester solubility issues but never read any papers about.
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
I just hit the middle ground and use a motor oil that is both Group III and Group IV and get the best of both worlds. And do it at substantially lower cost. But truth be told, the best PAO is going to be lousy with a sorry additive package. And a "mediocre" (per the OP) Group III can be a tremendous oil when combined with a killer add pack. Why folks place so much of their worries on the base oil is a mystery. It is a package deal when it comes to motor oils.... base oil plus add pack.
I agree. Someone posted a link not long ago where the paper was about different basestocks and what's required of the additive package when a large percentage of PAO is used. It went on to say that pao is a poor lubricator and requires a very well thought out additive package that works synergistically together because of pao's poor additive solubility. Pao is great in extreme cold but how many out there really experience -40. I don't feel the extra expense is worth it in my personal application. I'd love to use redline exclusively or even Amsoil however I cannot justify the cost.
 
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