Your starting to sound like a railroad manager.
What if...? A German Syntec question
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What makes me believe that Castrol is setting the pricing is that the warehouse clubs sell SYNTEC at M1 prices.
Calling Molakule and all other chemists!!!!! Surely their is a way we can determine if this oils base stock is ester or PAO based. Is their any type of catalyst that would only react with ester or only with PAO that we can add to this oil to test for the presence of esters?
JB, I think I've read here before that it's a pretty costly test.
Once again.....this is merely conjecture, but I am pretty sure that it is the oil manufacturers who are charging the high prices for their GIII stuff. If retail stores were marking the stuff up that high, then I think we would see serious competition and price slashing occuring occasionally to outdo each other. I think the reason the GIII oils are priced so high, is so most people won't realize that they are not the same as Mobil 1 and the other "true" synthetics.
I am really appreciating and enjoying the comments you all are providing. I am still struggling with the fact that Castrol would/could be so cold and calculating or so foolish as to attempt to play off the ignorance (supposed or real) of the consumer. My belief is, despite our recurring theme on this board that the average Joe/JoAnne doesn't have much of an understanding of what goes on in the wonderful world of lubrication, I still think that car guys and gals are more in tune with the stuff they dirty their hands with than consumers in other areas. They talk with each other just like we do. So, it would seem to me that this would ultimately "do in" Castrol...it is a risky game they are playing, especially with the information that can flow globally on the Internet...and they don't seem to play it in Europe. The only thing I don't have an answer for if you challenge what I just said about car guys/gals being discriminating consumers is the success of the filter guys with the orange boxes. Obviously, advertising and reputation earned in years past (even if performance has changed) can influence or continue to influence even supposedly intelligent consumers. I don't want to drag this discussion on ad infinitum, nor do I want to make this a "world hunger" issue, but I still think it is important to understand what might be going on with a major player (of historical significance, by the way) in a area that is important to the people on this board.
[ August 18, 2003, 12:07 AM: Message edited by: pscholte ]
[ August 18, 2003, 12:07 AM: Message edited by: pscholte ]
When it comes to the German made 0w30, I really don't think there's any skullduggery afoot on Castrol's part. I think several people have hit on what actually happened: Castrol realized that they didn't have a Syntec grade that could compete with Mobil 1's 0w40 for European applications. I'm sure there was some internal talk about reformulating the domestic 0w30, but in the end it was decided the most cost effective solution was to import the SLX and bottle it as Syntec.
At best, Castrol sees this oil filling a niche market need, and that's why you'll only find it in the US at AutoZone (which was the only place you could find Mobil 1 0w40 until recently) and not on the shelves at your local Wal-Mart.
Will they continue to import it and sell it? I think they will, if for no other reason than to have something comparable to Mobil 1 0w40 on the shelves with their other grades of Syntec. And if by chance, word-of-mouth, and this forum, the sales of German Syntec exceed their expectations, that will only be another reason to keep selling it, and maybe then we'll see it show up at Wal-Mart. (Which, if you think about it, is sorta what happened with Mobil 1 0w40.)
[ August 18, 2003, 12:30 AM: Message edited by: G-Man II ]
I'm confused! I keep reading that one possible justification for Castrol to market SLX (as repackaged Syntec ) is the need for an A3 oil.
-The 0W30 bottle states it is "specially formulated to meet the needs of high performance engines" (requiring) ACEA: A3/B3 B4-98 oil.
-The Syntec 5W50 bottle states it "meets engine protection requirements" of many standards, including, ACEA: A3, B3-98.
Many argue that Syntec 5W50 is a not "synthetic" oil, but rather from a lesser group lll stock and yet it meets ACEA: A3 standards. So why the need for repackaged SLX?
-The 0W30 bottle states it is "specially formulated to meet the needs of high performance engines" (requiring) ACEA: A3/B3 B4-98 oil.
-The Syntec 5W50 bottle states it "meets engine protection requirements" of many standards, including, ACEA: A3, B3-98.
Many argue that Syntec 5W50 is a not "synthetic" oil, but rather from a lesser group lll stock and yet it meets ACEA: A3 standards. So why the need for repackaged SLX?
I guess G-Man ll kind of answered my question. I was writing while he was posting.
Does the fact that a group lll synthetic has an A3 rating mean that a properly made groug lll can be as good as a PAO/ester blend?
Does the fact that a group lll synthetic has an A3 rating mean that a properly made groug lll can be as good as a PAO/ester blend?
This is merely conjecture.....but I think that castrol doesn't want the SLX and the Syntec getting near each other. Most people don't know what SLX is, they don't know what PAO/esters are, and they don't know the difference between GIII's and true synthetics.
Another way of looking at it, though, is this: The brand name "Syntec" has no intrinsic meaning in the natural language, but it is heavy with implication and extension that are easily made by the uninformed user. "Synthetic" and "Technology" are two such extensions. These concepts are very appealing to the do-it-yourself oil changer. And, Castrol (and anyone else) calls even their second-tier oils "synthetic"--the Group III stuff--such that any and all of the Syntec oils appear to be of the same ilk.
Those of us here at BITOG may know that there are significant physical and chemical differences in the various oils, and that there is certainly different performance potential amongst them, but nearly all consumers don't know these differences and don't want to.
So, they could, if they wanted, put the German oil out on the shelf right next to all of the others and most would never be the wiser. If you wanted an A3 oil, you might grab the 0w-30 SLX. Otherwise, you buy according to the viscosity you want or is specified for the vehicle.
What is ironic is that Castrol now finds themselves stuck on the horns of a dilemma: they freely market a variety of oils called "synthetic", many of which are only slightly better performers than the dino stock oils from which they came. Now, they have a potential star player in this German ester/PAO oil--whatever it happens to be--but they dare not play it up as too significantly different or better for reasons of composition without calling into question the quality of their other oils.
This is a most-interesting development and I'm anxious to see whether Castrol will find a place for this oil in the mainstream. Right now, it is not widely distributed and is available in small quantities only. I wonder whether they are testing the market or whether they just can't produce enough for general introduction to the North American market. Or maybe it is too expensive to import in quantity. All of my inquiries to them have gone unanswered.
[ August 17, 2003, 12:45 PM: Message edited by: YZF150 ]
Another way of looking at it, though, is this: The brand name "Syntec" has no intrinsic meaning in the natural language, but it is heavy with implication and extension that are easily made by the uninformed user. "Synthetic" and "Technology" are two such extensions. These concepts are very appealing to the do-it-yourself oil changer. And, Castrol (and anyone else) calls even their second-tier oils "synthetic"--the Group III stuff--such that any and all of the Syntec oils appear to be of the same ilk.
Those of us here at BITOG may know that there are significant physical and chemical differences in the various oils, and that there is certainly different performance potential amongst them, but nearly all consumers don't know these differences and don't want to.
So, they could, if they wanted, put the German oil out on the shelf right next to all of the others and most would never be the wiser. If you wanted an A3 oil, you might grab the 0w-30 SLX. Otherwise, you buy according to the viscosity you want or is specified for the vehicle.
What is ironic is that Castrol now finds themselves stuck on the horns of a dilemma: they freely market a variety of oils called "synthetic", many of which are only slightly better performers than the dino stock oils from which they came. Now, they have a potential star player in this German ester/PAO oil--whatever it happens to be--but they dare not play it up as too significantly different or better for reasons of composition without calling into question the quality of their other oils.
This is a most-interesting development and I'm anxious to see whether Castrol will find a place for this oil in the mainstream. Right now, it is not widely distributed and is available in small quantities only. I wonder whether they are testing the market or whether they just can't produce enough for general introduction to the North American market. Or maybe it is too expensive to import in quantity. All of my inquiries to them have gone unanswered.
[ August 17, 2003, 12:45 PM: Message edited by: YZF150 ]
Yuk, a "good" Group III based oil can APPROACH the performance levels of a PAO/ester based synthetic, but it can't match it or beat it. Keep in mind that I'm talking about an oil that is primarily Group III. I'm still persuaded by my own supposition (how's that for hubris?) that the SLX 0w30 is probably an ester/Group III blend—say about 80% esters, and 20% Group III. The fact that the oil has a pour point of -81°F means that the primary component of the base oil blend has to be esters, but the remaining portion would not HAVE to be PAO for this oil to still have outstanding specs and performance.
As for Syntec 5w50 being an A3 oil, it is, but no currently produced European car sold in America recommends that grade. And the Syntec 5w50 doesn't meet any of the more stringent OEM specs (like MB 229.3, Porsche, and BMW LL) that the 0w30 Syntec does (as does Mobil 1 0w40).
Patman
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I'm still shocked that out of all the places they could've sold it in Canada, Castrol chose Walmart! And it also shocks me that we got it first, since most oils come here 6 months later than the US (such as Mobil 1 SuperSyn)
Hey look, my post count equals a typical oil change interval!
Hey look, my post count equals a typical oil change interval!
Your a sick, sick manquote:
Originally posted by Patman:
I'm still shocked that out of all the places they could've sold it in Canada, Castrol chose Walmart! And it also shocks me that we got it first, since most oils come here 6 months later than the US (such as Mobil 1 SuperSyn)
Hey look, my post count equals a typical oil change interval!
I think that the reason Syntec 5W-50 meets A3/B3 specs is because of its weight. There are quite a few Group III oils that meet ACEA A3/B3 specs but they all are at least XW-40 oils. Magnatec and Dynatec sold in Germany meet these and most manufacturers specs.
If you look at ACEA 2002 european oil sequences (I'm sure most of you oil gurus are familiar with this
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