Why use "fake" synthetic instead of PAO/Ester?

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: Falcon_LS
I have no problem using "fake" synthetics, but what I do have a problem with is paying "full synthetic" price for a "fake" synthetic. Just like mandatory product information labels on food items, oil should be correctly labelled for what it is and not what it's supposed to be.

I don't know the price of various "Synthetic Oils" in Kuwait, in US the price of M1, PP ... is about $5/qt in 5-qt jug at Walmart.

Conventional oil such as PYB is about $3/qt in 5-qt jug, so the cost of "Faked Synthetic" is only about 60% more. You think that since it's a "Faked Synthetic" we should be charged $3.50-4.00 a quart for M1 ? If that's the case then why bother buying conventional oil in the first place.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: wemay
I'm sure all the peasants using conventional appreciate the sympathies.

For sure!

As for the original comment, well, that depends. Finding a predominantly PAO SN/GF-5 oil is hit and miss. I'd wager there are far more Group III examples than predominantly Group IV examples. My G37's fill is predominantly PAO, yet is cheaper than just about anything else out there. Go figure.

With respect to ester based oils, trying to find an SN/GF-5 example would be extraordinarily difficult. I can't even think of one example off the top of my head.

 

[Nickdfresh]

Originally Posted By: tig1
As a follower of this site you should know by now that base stock blends are as good as or better than oils that are all PAO or ester. Also I can't think of any engine oil that is all PAO or ester. Maybe RL on ester, but it doesn't seem to protect engines any better.


I think it's been stated here the Redline oils typically used for street vehicles are mostly PAO whereas it's their racing line that is mostly POE...

 

[Artem]

I've yet to hear of a lubricant related failure of an engine that was properly maintained and serviced, even if it was with cheap conventional oil.

We all know that the engine will keep on spinning well after the chassis has rusted and started to fall apart around the block, so why even bother discussing "real" synthetic vs "fake" and the possible benefits it might offer an engine?

If the so called "real" synthetic does indeed offer better protection and longer engine life, I say we buy two identical cars and run one on the cheapest dino lube available (Supertech?) @ manufacturer recommended intervals and run the second one on the best "real" synthetic available to mankind @ manufacturer recommended oil change intervals.

I'm willing to bet my left nut that after 500k miles, once the Chinese or Mexican made chassis has crumbled apart around the engines, both will still be running well. Will the block that has "real" synthetic be cleaner? Will it have shed 10ppm less of iron over it's lifetime vs the engine that had dino oil?

What about the costs involved? I bet with the money saved by running good ol' dinosaur juice, I can afford to completely rebuild the engine that had dino oil with all Brand New parts and still have enough cash leftover for a nice vacation. I could even buy a NEW engine with the money saved and stick it inside the rusted chassis and drive another 500k miles.

I call complete BALONEY on all this synthetic vs dino vs "real" synthetic competition. I find it hard to believe that under your average "regular" daily use, that the high end juice will provide any significant benefit to an engine that will naturally outlast the rest of the car anyway...

Who agrees with me?

 

[wemay]

With few exceptions, I agree wholeheartedly.

 

[Falcon_LS]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
I don't know the price of various "Synthetic Oils" in Kuwait, in US the price of M1, PP ... is about $5/qt in 5-qt jug at Walmart.

Conventional oil such as PYB is about $3/qt in 5-qt jug, so the cost of "Faked Synthetic" is only about 60% more. You think that since it's a "Faked Synthetic" we should be charged $3.50-4.00 a quart for M1 ? If that's the case then why bother buying conventional oil in the first place.


I buy my oil through the APO, a decision mainly driven by cost, although there's a better variety back in the States as well. That being said, a liter of Mobil 1 here costs $15.31 a liter. If I can buy a case of 6 for $49.81 shipped, why pay $91.86 for the same thing?

The cost of a synthetic varies by brand. Whilst Mobil 1 costs $15.31 a liter, Liqui Moly charges $13.61. I have absolutely no problem paying that for their Synthoil range of products that are purely PAO based. But their synthetic technology products cost the same. Pennzoil also sells for $13.61 a quart, when you can buy a case of 6 for ~$48 shipped. The only reasonably priced synthetic technology oil here is Fuchs Titan SuperSyn at $9.19 a liter. Castrol sell their trashy Dubai blend of Edge for the same price as Mobil 1 and I would not run that stuff if you paid me by the millions - a vastly inferior product compared to its German version.

As far as non-synthetics go - Motorcraft Synthetic Blend is about $3.70 a quart. Kendall charges $4.25 a quart. Makes me question - if both these brands are shipped from the States and sell for this price, how does Castrol GTX blended in Dubai with heaven only knows what garbage base stock, cost $5.10 a liter? Marketing at its finest.

 

[chrisri]

For the price. Difference between HC and PAO in price is big. No sales on real PAO/Ester oils. For on road use Group III blends are great and have all manufacturers approvals.

PAO and Ester based oils often lack those approvals, not because they couldn't get, but because it's not important for racing. And this is where PAO/Ester oils triumph over hydro cracked oils.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: kschachn
And another thing. I actually believe the German laws regarding synthetic oil have or very soon will be a detriment to what is available. ExxonMobil showed that for their Visom base stock, some attributes (especially when blended with PAO) were superior to an all-PAO product (none are "all" PAO of course, but IAW the German definition).

You may very well end up with a law in Germany that restricts the quality of the synthetic oil that is available.



If there is 1 thing I've learned here at BITOG above all others it's that a well formulated engine oil is much more than the sum of its parts.
For example M1 0w-40 SN was forecasted by many to be lesser than "real" synthetics once it was discovered that mobil was using its proprietary "visom" basestock which couldn't be labelled synthetic in whichever European markets,yet it still met all the same oem specs.
So is a specific basestock really that important?
NO!
The complete formulation is what matters.
If a consumer can buy an oil that is certified for their engine and is formulated with less costly ingredients,yet is still certified,and costs less than the competition then to me that's a no brainer.
An oil can be more than the sum of its parts.


Comically of course, they've now increased the PAO content in the M1 0w-40 product to a majority again. Go figure, LOL!

VISOM is proprietary and subject to change without notice.
I wish we had that oil at our Walmart at American pricing.

 

[Oil Changer]

Your problem is that you have a pre-conceived notion that PAO/ester-based (or what you call a true or real synthetic) oils are, "best". You have to ask yourself, best for what? Any "fake" synthetic you buy will easily protect your engine under any realistic scenario you would even attempt with a daily driver.

PAO/ester may be a better choice if you have a dedicated race car or do frequent cold-soak starts in the Antarctic. But you are not racing and it is established that people who start engines in arctic conditions use starting aids; sometimes with conventional oil.

So why do you think you need PAO or ester? Because it's the best? Not for you.

Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Few recent threads about synthetic vs. conventional got me thinking.
Some make the argument that the oil is the life blood of the engine so why skimp on oil? Or that if you want the engine to last, why not use the best? And that the price difference is so minimal.

In that vein, why take half measures? PAO and ester oils are clearly superior to Group III, so if the above arguments are true for people making them, why use the "fake" synthetics? Surely PAO and ester can be a better blood for the engine and provide longer life just for a little bit more money, right?

 

[Falcon_LS]

Originally Posted By: Oil Changer
Your problem is that you have a pre-conceived notion that PAO/ester-based (or what you call a true or real synthetic) oils are, "best". You have to ask yourself, best for what? Any "fake" synthetic you buy will easily protect your engine under any realistic scenario you would even attempt with a daily driver.

PAO/ester may be a better choice if you have a dedicated race car or do frequent cold-soak starts in the Antarctic. But you are not racing and it is established that people who start engines in arctic conditions use starting aids; sometimes with conventional oil.

So why do you think you need PAO or ester? Because it's the best? Not for you.


As far as I'm concerned, at the end of the day, what matters is the performance of the end product and not just the base oil itself. True, additives tend to blend better with synthetic technology oils compared to the likes of PAO, and there are quite a few synthetic technology oils out there meeting far stringent specs like MB Sheet 229.5-12 - ST oils are not inferior.

On a personal level, my beef is with how much they charge for ST oils outside the United States. Mobil 1 0W-40 is a perfect example as a "global formulation" - why is it ~$15 overseas when its just over $4.40 in the US?

 

[BillyTheKid]

Originally Posted By: Falcon_LS

On a personal level, my beef is with how much they charge for ST oils outside the United States. Mobil 1 0W-40 is a perfect example as a "global formulation" - why is it ~$15 overseas when its just over $4.40 in the US?


My guess would be supply and demand (buying power) as well as local taxes in the country charging more causing a heavy impact on pricing.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: wemay
With few exceptions, I agree wholeheartedly.



Ditto.

Conventional at 5000 mile intervals vs faux synthetic at 10000 mile intervals(there are some engine and usage exceptions of course)will both contribute to a great running engine long after the doors have rusted off.
if I was auto crossing i might consider using a pao/poe formulation like redline but only in that particular application would I consider it due to cost.
In everyday driving I don't need the extra benefits redline provides,at extra cost.
And to be honest with oils like M1 and PU I don't feel that there isn't a tangible benefit spending more when these suppliers have cost effective products that are so close to equal to the more expensive boutique oils I'm hard pressed being able to justify spending more than they cost.
It's all just talk anyway. These approved and certified faux syn's perform to oem satisfaction,so go ahead and spend more on products that may or may not be certified,even though they use more costly ingredients,and may or may not perform as well as a certified product.
This whole topic is getting old. People come on the site flipping their gums about fake syns blah blah blah and the whole certification thing goes right over their heads.
Then they yap about redline or Amsoil being real syns,yet their best products,you know the real synthetics,aren't certified.
It's funny when you think about it. These same guys run 3000 mile intervals on oil they can run 10000 miles with and they've convinced themselves they are doing the engine a favour.
You wanna do the engine a favour,use a certified oil. You really want to get educated then run a few used oil analysis so the interval can be fine tuned to the particular vehicle and driving habits.
It's just that simple.
I use faux syns. I run 10000 mile intervals.
I'm sure I could run longer intervals if I got a few used oil analysis done however for the 30 bucks it costs I can just change the oil and not worry about it.
Because I buy syns on sale and I don't have a single jug that I paid more than 28 bucks for I pay half as much per mile vs using conventional.
For me that's cost effective.
If using conventional would lessen my cost per mile then rest assured I'd be using it. For me it's about dollars and cents.
No way do I believe that using a synthetic oil will lengthen engine life vs a conventional if the oci is appropriate for both products.
If anything I feel the conventional would be better at lubrication because of the different sized oil molecules.
No metal part is smooth under magnification. These hills and valleys aren't all the same size,so the different sized oil molecules fill those gaps better that a single uniform sized molecule.

There was some pics posted here some time ago that showed some nonsense where the marketing implied that their syns have uniform molecules thus lubricate better,which in theory sounds plausible,if the 2 parts being lubricated are perfectly smooth,which they aren't.
Those inconsistencies are important to consider.

 

[TiredTrucker]

Exxon Mobil prices it's stuff to the level the market will bear. Pure and simple. Plus, they shell out a LOT of bucks for marketing things. They pay a royalty to NASCAR to slap that "official oil" stuff all over the place. And they shell out mega bucks each year for major commercial truck show events and high ticket music entertainment at these events. There is substantially more about their oil cost than anything to do with their oil. I would much rather pay for a very good quality Group III / Group IV blend that the price is more in line with what it actually costs to make the finished product, not million dollar TV ads during sporting events and other nonsense. They have good products, but pricing is way out of line for them and the products are not all that much greater to justify the cost. I guess same can be said of some of the boutique synthetics also.

 

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: Falcon_LS

I buy my oil through the APO, a decision mainly driven by cost, although there's a better variety back in the States as well. That being said, a liter of Mobil 1 here costs $15.31 a liter. If I can buy a case of 6 for $49.81 shipped, why pay $91.86 for the same thing?

The cost of a synthetic varies by brand. Whilst Mobil 1 costs $15.31 a liter, Liqui Moly charges $13.61. I have absolutely no problem paying that for their Synthoil range of products that are purely PAO based. But their synthetic technology products cost the same. Pennzoil also sells for $13.61 a quart, when you can buy a case of 6 for ~$48 shipped. The only reasonably priced synthetic technology oil here is Fuchs Titan SuperSyn at $9.19 a liter. Castrol sell their trashy Dubai blend of Edge for the same price as Mobil 1 and I would not run that stuff if you paid me by the millions - a vastly inferior product compared to its German version.

As far as non-synthetics go - Motorcraft Synthetic Blend is about $3.70 a quart. Kendall charges $4.25 a quart. Makes me question - if both these brands are shipped from the States and sell for this price, how does Castrol GTX blended in Dubai with heaven only knows what garbage base stock, cost $5.10 a liter? Marketing at its finest.

Now I understand your reasoning about prize of synthetic PAO based and Group 3+ based in Kuwait.

In US the price of synthetic oil such as M1, PP ... is less than double conventional oil, if you buy 5-qt jug at Walmart.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
I guess same can be said of some of the boutique synthetics also.

Well, you really can't have it both ways. The boutiques don't have the same economies of scale. I guarantee you that Shell and Mobil spend more on Formula 1 sponsorship annually than the combined gross revenues of Royal Purple and Amsoil. So, I either help McLaren and/or Scuderia Ferrari, or I'm paying boutique prices, or I'm hunting for something obscure with lesser marketing, and still likely not paying substantially less for the product.

Part of that high public profile allows the products to be readily available.