Switch to Toyota 0w-20 on Camry with consumption?

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: Mr60hertz
Skyship - it burns it, doesn't leak. Are you suggesting replacing the PCV with your CCV comment?

Originally Posted By: skyship
Originally Posted By: fauxchemist
First of all your consumption is nothing/very little. My thoughts are- Why are you trying to slow consumption by going to a thinner oil makes no sense. My guess is, if switched,consumption would hold steady at current rate.


I agree it won't change, you have two choices, think about moving to a 30 grade or if you are leaking rather than burning then an HM 30 grade. My guess is that would half the consumption if you used a 5/30 HM, but make sure you don't have a blocked CCV.


GENERAL NON POSTER SPECIFIC REPLY:
Some engines have a crankcase valve some don't, I always mention it just as a precaution because it is a problem area for some engines.
With oil brands you get what you pay for and good oil that lasts longer (M1 0/30 is a good oil) will cost more. Many of the smaller engine oil companies in the US have poor quality control standards and their spec wanders. Valvoline is one of the few the German labs think is OK and it does have some franchise related approvals for the long OCI's that must be recommended by those companies in the EU.
The saving in fuel between an 0/20 and 0/30 of the same quality is often so small it can't be detected and probably less than the extra cost of top up oil, so changing from a 30 to a 20 to save money is a daft idea.

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: JOD
Originally Posted By: fauxchemist
First of all your consumption is nothing/very little. My thoughts are- Why are you trying to slow consumption by going to a thinner oil makes no sense. My guess is, if switched,consumption would hold steady at current rate.


The idea that consumption is directly related to viscosity dates back to monograde oils. It's been well-documented that consumption can actually increase, significantly, by using a thicker oil. If you can find some the excepts of this book online, you'll find it pretty interesting: http://www.astm.org/BOOKSTORE/PUBS/STP621_S2.htm

One thing of note was that a synthetic 5W20 showed significantly less consumption than a conventional 10W40, and that heavier multigrade oils tend to be consumed faster in some standardized tests.

I can tell you that from my own experience that consumption rates tend to vary more by brand than viscosity. I had a car that ate oil and tried probably 10 different oils over a 150K mile period, all of very similar weight. There were significant differences in consumption among oils of nearly identical weight.

I've also used Toyota 0W20 an PP in car that doesn't eat oil (probably 1-2 oz per 5K miles), and usage with PP was slightly higher than TGMO 0W20 or Motorcraft's 5W20. I wouldn't hesitate to use it because of that, but that was my experience with it.

Thicker oil seems to leak a little slower, which is why I bet some people think it helps fix consumption. In general, it doesn't.


It does and every R&D engineer knows it cuts leaks in particular BUT you have to compare like with like because some synthetics clean much better than cheap oils and their evapourative loss rates are less than dino. So reading studies comparing different oil brands and types is pointless.
Just use M1 0/20 for a while then change to M1 0/30, or Edge 0/30 to Edge 0/40 for a true comparison and you will see a difference.
To further confuse the matter some oils have seal conditioners which make a difference and most studies done about oil in the US are paid for my the oil companies that need to push the CAFE fuel economy game, so they are designed around the result required.
Try the BMW, VW, Ford (UK only) or Volvo forums and they all have real life UOA averaged out studies. The individual results vary according to where the oil is burnt.
For many engines over 100K miles the owners would not be able able to detect oil consumption between OCI's if they have been using a better quality oil in the first place. Sometimes a case of using 0/20 fully synth and not 5/20 dino that shears to a lower grade, sometimes 0/30 insted of 0/20. Every engine is different.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Mr60hertz
Better than Yota's 0w-20?

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I'd give Mobil 1 AFE 0W20 a try.


Depends on who you ask. IMO yes, and for your case it might be better, I'd give it a shot. You won't know until you try it. Just be sure the PCV system is good.

 

[KitaCam]

Originally Posted By: Mr60hertz
Any thoughts on switching to Toyota's 0w-20 on a 07 4-cylinder Camry that uses at least a quart every 5k on Pennzoil Platinum? I do 10k changes and am looking to curb consumption a bit. Car has 170k on it.


USES suggests that you see no seepage or leakage...have you checked for that around various seals/gaskets for any...?

Have you checked the PCV valve as suggested?...it's only $5 at Toyoland...if it's gunked up it increases pressure at the top end of the engine (compromising the valvecover gasket seal)...
also...check the PCV hose...at that many miles (170k) heat may have resulted in hardeded/brittle and cracked tips (like mine @ 100k miles on my 05 LE) and that may have an adverse effect on burning oil...

Finally....have you checked the oil level @ 5k miles...if it seems to need little if any, perhaps the oil is breaking down beyond that 5k, and all you may need to do is shorten the OCI...that would be a nice thing to learn...

Good luck and let us know what you learn/do

 

[teddyboy]

Originally Posted By: Artem

I use 5w30 as that is what it specs.


Actually the specs for that engine are to use either 5W20 or 0W20. In subsequent year models they obviously changed that to 0W20 with a 10K oci. (I seem to recall that they indicated that dino 5W20 was stil ok with 5K oci)

 

[JOD]

Originally Posted By: skyship
Originally Posted By: JOD
Originally Posted By: fauxchemist
First of all your consumption is nothing/very little. My thoughts are- Why are you trying to slow consumption by going to a thinner oil makes no sense. My guess is, if switched,consumption would hold steady at current rate.


The idea that consumption is directly related to viscosity dates back to monograde oils. It's been well-documented that consumption can actually increase, significantly, by using a thicker oil. If you can find some the excepts of this book online, you'll find it pretty interesting: http://www.astm.org/BOOKSTORE/PUBS/STP621_S2.htm

One thing of note was that a synthetic 5W20 showed significantly less consumption than a conventional 10W40, and that heavier multigrade oils tend to be consumed faster in some standardized tests.

I can tell you that from my own experience that consumption rates tend to vary more by brand than viscosity. I had a car that ate oil and tried probably 10 different oils over a 150K mile period, all of very similar weight. There were significant differences in consumption among oils of nearly identical weight.

I've also used Toyota 0W20 an PP in car that doesn't eat oil (probably 1-2 oz per 5K miles), and usage with PP was slightly higher than TGMO 0W20 or Motorcraft's 5W20. I wouldn't hesitate to use it because of that, but that was my experience with it.

Thicker oil seems to leak a little slower, which is why I bet some people think it helps fix consumption. In general, it doesn't.


It does and every R&D engineer knows it cuts leaks in particular BUT you have to compare like with like because some synthetics clean much better than cheap oils and their evapourative loss rates are less than dino. So reading studies comparing different oil brands and types is pointless.
Just use M1 0/20 for a while then change to M1 0/30, or Edge 0/30 to Edge 0/40 for a true comparison and you will see a difference.
To further confuse the matter some oils have seal conditioners which make a difference and most studies done about oil in the US are paid for my the oil companies that need to push the CAFE fuel economy game, so they are designed around the result required.
Try the BMW, VW, Ford (UK only) or Volvo forums and they all have real life UOA averaged out studies. The individual results vary according to where the oil is burnt.
For many engines over 100K miles the owners would not be able able to detect oil consumption between OCI's if they have been using a better quality oil in the first place. Sometimes a case of using 0/20 fully synth and not 5/20 dino that shears to a lower grade, sometimes 0/30 insted of 0/20. Every engine is different.


The linked text also compares multigrade oils of similar quality, and the heavier oils=more consumption overall, although the increase in not predictable and non-linear. Sorry, but I'll take published research and my own experience with an oil burner over your opinion.

 

[Mr60hertz]

Thanks for all the feedback. I'm going to check over the PCV and use the Toyota 0w-20 and see what happens.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: Mr60hertz
Any thoughts on switching to Toyota's 0w-20 on a 07 4-cylinder Camry that uses at least a quart every 5k on Pennzoil Platinum? I do 10k changes and am looking to curb consumption a bit. Car has 170k on it.

That's not much at the moment. Generally speaking, the thinner the oil, the higher the consumption will be. You won't see any difference at all from brand to brand or type to type but will see a lot of difference from viscosity to viscosity.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: Mr60hertz
Any thoughts on switching to Toyota's 0w-20 on a 07 4-cylinder Camry that uses at least a quart every 5k on Pennzoil Platinum? I do 10k changes and am looking to curb consumption a bit. Car has 170k on it.

That's not much at the moment. Generally speaking, the thinner the oil, the higher the consumption will be. You won't see any difference at all from brand to brand or type to type but will see a lot of difference from viscosity to viscosity.

OK, I should add that NOACK volatility actually will make a difference (synthetic [higher the groups of the base stocks] and thicker oil usually having lower NOACK). Viscosity (higher the viscosity, lower the consumption) and NOACK volatility should be the main factors (viscosity probably being a lot more important) in determining the oil consumption. Seal swellers in high-mileage oils can arguably help in the short run but chances are that they may aggravate it in the long run.

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: Mr60hertz
Any thoughts on switching to Toyota's 0w-20 on a 07 4-cylinder Camry that uses at least a quart every 5k on Pennzoil Platinum? I do 10k changes and am looking to curb consumption a bit. Car has 170k on it.

That's not much at the moment. Generally speaking, the thinner the oil, the higher the consumption will be. You won't see any difference at all from brand to brand or type to type but will see a lot of difference from viscosity to viscosity.

OK, I should add that NOACK volatility actually will make a difference (synthetic [higher the groups of the base stocks] and thicker oil usually having lower NOACK). Viscosity (higher the viscosity, lower the consumption) and NOACK volatility should be the main factors (viscosity probably being a lot more important) in determining the oil consumption. Seal swellers in high-mileage oils can arguably help in the short run but chances are that they may aggravate it in the long run.


Oddly enough I understand that the latest HM oils have had their seal swellers (Or conditioners etc) reduced from the previous levels to meet new certification requirements.
If the oil consumption is a tad high, but you don't have any leaks beyond economic repair then the higher grade oil should help, or if that fails then look for an HM oil.
It might be worth doing a UOA to see how the engine is, because if the rings and main bearings are good but the engine starts burning oil due to poor valve guide oil seals then when it becomes an issue you will have a good idea if fitting a recon head is worth doing.

 

[Artem]

Originally Posted By: teddyboy
Originally Posted By: Artem

I use 5w30 as that is what it specs.


Actually the specs for that engine are to use either 5W20 or 0W20. In subsequent year models they obviously changed that to 0W20 with a 10K oci. (I seem to recall that they indicated that dino 5W20 was stil ok with 5K oci)


You're gonna argue with me as to what's written on the oil cap...?

Even Amsoil's website shows 5w30 for my 06 tC. 2007+ shows 0w20.

 

[teddyboy]

Originally Posted By: Artem
Originally Posted By: teddyboy
Originally Posted By: Artem

I use 5w30 as that is what it specs.


Actually the specs for that engine are to use either 5W20 or 0W20. In subsequent year models they obviously changed that to 0W20 with a 10K oci. (I seem to recall that they indicated that dino 5W20 was stil ok with 5K oci)


You're gonna argue with me as to what's written on the oil cap...?

Even Amsoil's website shows 5w30 for my 06 tC. 2007+ shows 0w20.

I don't see an 07 Camry listed in your signature. There is, however, one listed in my signature and if my skills were better I would take a picture. You would see that on the filler cap of the 07 Camry, which is what the OP owns, it says to use either 5W20 ir 0W20,

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: Artem
Originally Posted By: teddyboy
Originally Posted By: Artem

I use 5w30 as that is what it specs.


Actually the specs for that engine are to use either 5W20 or 0W20. In subsequent year models they obviously changed that to 0W20 with a 10K oci. (I seem to recall that they indicated that dino 5W20 was stil ok with 5K oci)


You're gonna argue with me as to what's written on the oil cap...?

Even Amsoil's website shows 5w30 for my 06 tC. 2007+ shows 0w20.

Try finding out what they stamp on the oil cap outside of the US, otherwise you might be paying more than you think for using a thin oil.
A top quality full synthetic 0/20 might stay in grade longer than a cheap dinoblend 5/20, so quality counts, particulary if you push the OCI boundaries and shear to a lower grade.
The info you are given in the US including the oil cap stamp is aimed at one thing only and that is minumum fuel consumption, within a financially tollerable warranty claims rate. Same game in Japan due to expensive fuel etc.
I really can't undertand why owners out of warranty don't look at using a top quality 0/30 full synthetic and 10K mile OCI's rather than using cheap 5/20 and 5K OCI's for normal service useage. It's normally cheaper unless you do your own oil changes and are using some supermarket special horror story and an orange can of death. The top up oil will cost more than the 1 or 2% fuel saving between the two grades, but DYOR as some hybrids like 20 grades.

 

[Mr60hertz]

Update - I've gone 5000 miles on the Toyota 0w-20 and my consumption is no worse than the PP 5w-20; a quart every 5000.

 

[KitaCam]

Kitacamry is the 05/LE/I4 and I switched to PP 5w-30 from the same 5w-30 PYB that the dealer had/has/uses in bulk...(the recommended oil/weight for the 05)

Previous OC were Shell dino 5w-30

Oil consumption seems the same...a cup's worth per 3k miles (a half-quart per 6k)

In addition to the oil change, Kitacam got a new PCV valve and hose as well as plugs (and valve cover gasket), and a throttle body cleaning were done....

The result is a smoother quieter running engine...consumption is not the only measure of a good oil.