Solvency in Oil

buster · Dec 16, 2003

quote:
The inherent lack of solvency of both fuels and lubricants in use today is allowing gelation to be the #1 issue is automotive engine failures at an alarming rate, in spite of the API's window dressing of standards". Sent TLT magazine for the Phipps report 11/03. Terry Dyson

I borrowed this from Terry in another thread. Do oils that contain more esters, such as RL, Delvac 1 etc, have better solvency then lower ester based oils? I also assume this is why running AutoRx with an oil helps the solvency. Am I on the right track? [I dont know]

TR3-2001SE · Dec 16, 2003

Don't have an answer but you always ask the most interesting questions. [Cheers!]

geeeman · Dec 16, 2003

Is "gelation" code for sludge build-up? [Eek!]

sbc350gearhead · Dec 16, 2003

From what I understand, esters do provide solvency, as LC does as well.

GROUCHO MARX · Dec 16, 2003

Gellation is sludge build up, just sounds tastier!

JohnBrowning · Dec 16, 2003

buster, yes some esters provide a great deal of solvency. Lube control also add's solvency to oils.Hydrotreat crudes ,slack wax isomerzation(sp) and PAO's do not have very good solvency. This is why the additives are disloved in an ester to aid miscibility and to get things to mix. These are not the esters one talks about when talking base stocks. THe ester used in base stocks have incredable solvency when compared to group III oils and PAO's. This is one reason that Redline can put such a stron additive package together. Most oils can not hold that high of a concentration of additives in solution.

Dr. T · Dec 16, 2003

"PAO's do not have good solvency" What effect does this statement have on using PAO-based lubricants in an engine? Any negative??

nick778 · Dec 16, 2003

Relatedly, do Group II and Group III basestocks have better solvency than PAOs? Can anyone stack rank basestocks relative to solvency? Also, it this an advantage of using a Gorup II or III blend combined with a PAO such as Shaeffers?

Pablo · Dec 16, 2003

First of all, let's nip this in the bud:

quote:
PAO's do not have very good solvency.

Solvency of what and relatively to what? PAO's have excellent solvency for dirt, combustion by-products and for their additive packages in automotive (and other) applications. PAO's have better solvency than Group's I,II and III. I will agree with Terry to some extent, that new low emission, hot burn engines put motor oils to extreme solvency test. POE (polyester) based oils can and do excellent in these applications, due to their naturally good solvency (and more due to the ability to hold up under brutal oxidizing temps) but at a huge cost premium to PAO's. ($7.50+ qt vs under $5 qt). But in long term realistically, this cost premium, to pay for this solvency (over PAO's not petro oil), has not shown many benefits. In fact, most analysis data over the last 1.5 years doesn't show POE based oils as the magic bullet they are on paper. PAO's do quite nicely, thank you. So again, buster, what we learned last year, still applies this year, and next. A motor oil needs to be good in ALL aspects...and solvency is another important aspect.

Alex D · Dec 16, 2003

If you're worried about solvency in your motor oil, just add LC to any of you're favorite oils. I also don't think that sludging has become a worse problem. We had much, much more sludging problems in the 70s and 80s in our cars, especially one really bad case with Castrol GTX. Also Pennzoil used to be a product prone to sludging and they have now improved.

JohnBrowning · Dec 21, 2003

Oh no!!! No nipping Pablo anything but that!!! So Pablo if PAO has such good solvency why was conventional oil used as a carrier for additives for so long with PAO? Why did so many misciability esters have to be developed and added to PAO's that were not used or used in a lesser degree with group I oils and ester based oils? I am not trying to argue here just trying to learn. A lot of Flaskheads have told me just the oposite of what you are saying so I want to understand this issue of solvency and PAO's!! I was always taught the the order of solvency was as follows for motor oil stocks: 1)Esters 2)Group I 3)Group II 4) Group III and PAO Pablo my buds are located in a nip free zone!! THanks for any corrections I hate to giveout bad info!

Pablo · Dec 21, 2003

I ask again, solvency OF what? I'm sure it's somewhat true that new additive packages were and are developed for PAO's. But this does not mean that PAO's are terrible solvents. Somewhat relevant: Deposit formation and solvent removal of said deposits Insolubles [ December 21, 2003, 04:53 PM: Message edited by: Pablo ]

Robbie Alexander · Dec 21, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Pablo: I ask again, solvency OF what? -******-[/URL]

What? What are you looking for.. Solvent or Contamination or additive ? All BASE oils, the more pure they are like in a hydrotreated oil, the more solvent... better cleaning and such.

TooSlick · Dec 21, 2003

Amsoil is largely using advanced PAO basestocks these days for their regular 5w-30/10w-30/10w-40/20w-50 formulations. They are certainly using some boron in the form of a borate ester as a friction modifier in their gas engine oils, however it is not a significant portion of the basestock by volume. Terry Dyson has alluded to this on a number of occasions, and Georgeseq from AVLube has said basically the same thing about the supersyn formulation. Delvac 1 may still be using a PAO/Ester blend for all I know? For some reason the guys at ExxonMobil are loath to share all this stuff with me - go figure? [Wink]

The idea that PAO's don't have any solvency was true of the earlier PAO basestocks, but time marches on and ExxonMobil continues to do lots of IR & D in basestock development. There are actually several classes of PAO basestocks with different molecular structures. I don't know how they are balancing the seal swell characteristics, but for all I know that is no longer an issue either. Before you ask, I don't know what the basestock blend is for the S2000 and S3000 oils, so anything I said would be pure speculation. Tooslick www.lubedealer.com/Dixie_Synthetics

Robbie Alexander · Dec 21, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by TooSlick: -*-*-* however it is not a significant portion of the basestock by volume. Terry Dyson has alluded to this on a number of occasions, and Georgeseq from AVLube has said basically the same thing about the supersyn formulation. *-*-*

Wish I could help here, but I know nothing about the ratios either... and I doubt you'll get that info here, the people that I know that look at the site won't even join as members... well until someone with nothing to lose starts explaining, we'll only guess or maybe get lucky and stumble into the right answer. BUT IMO that is the key.. % in the oil... and the ratios thereof including how they react to the METALS... IMO this is where one may learn the real secrets of reading UOA's IMO it's ALL ratios... Metals with metals or adds with adds... but you had better know how everything lines up!

JohnBrowning · Dec 21, 2003

By solvency I am talking about the oils ability to hold additives in solution and to disolve those polermized(SP)VII's that are glueing all the sludge and varnish together inside an engine. We have been told that Redline does not need solvency aids like LC because of it's high ester content and the esters high solvency. Both Terry and Molakule have said something simalar to this. THe LC is added to increase an oil solvency so if an oil needs additional solvency it must not have enough of it's own! We have also been told that the reason Redline uses so much moly and other additivves in their oil is because they can. Terry has said that oils with less esters in them can not hold that amount of additives in solution. So again we come back to solvency. We also see cleaning in engines running oils high in esters that we do not see with PAO oils lacking high amounts of esters. THis is possable due to the esters solvency! THis is why M1 and other oils do so much better with LC and the LC/132 mix. THey increase the solvency and increas AW adds. So to date I do not see were solvency is not a issue. Terry has even authored papers if my memory is correct on the lack of solvency of modern lubes and fuels!

Robbie Alexander · Dec 22, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by JohnBrowning: By solvency I am talking about the oils ability to hold additives in solution and to disolve those polermized(SP)VII's that are glueing all the sludge and varnish together inside an engine. -*-*-*

Yeah, agreed... but there are OILS out there that have it.. and I doubt that something like lube control can help me with the oil I use... I could be wrong... Anyhow, it is an issue to me per se, because an oil that NEEDS it is lacking, agreed, and most oils on the market are lacking... Now is this going to make the car fall apart, MOST indeed NO. NOT many people NEED a high grade oil, they will NEED more maintenance and have less POTENTIAL to protect with a lesser product... and in the long run, in the end often pay more for the cheaper oil, but each application requires a new consideration

jason07-1zzfe · Dec 22, 2003

Lube control will help any oil..

Robbie Alexander · Dec 23, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Jason Troxell: Lube control will help any oil..

Why? what will it do for oil? What is the MAXIMUM time (miles) or % it has increased a regular Dino OIL>????? List every oil you know and I'll tell you if mine is among the ones listed.

Solvency in Oil

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