For the fun of it, I took our old Honda in for state inspection to the dealer that has been very helpfull with our new Honda doing warranty work. It aslo has a persistant cel, and I know the code is from the front O2 sensor. I have a new universal sensor in there, so I'm not looking for a new one, for now. I told the SA about the code and asked if there was any expert knowledge I could purchase that would make it run right, or if they could simply look if there was a loose wire or anything to FIX it. I was told I need a new O2 and it would be something silly like $600. They also handed me a bill for $120 for scanning it. I said, yeah, I KNOW the code already and TOLD you what it was. I asked if there was a fix, and they did not fix it, just told me the same info I told them. That's fine if that's their diagnosis, but they didn't really tell me anything or do anything usefull or "expert". After a good bit of complaining, we split the bill in half...maybe fair, maybe not but it avoided more unpleasantness. I thought I had a good enough relationship w/them not to get bonned like that. (ftr- my service guy had already left for the day) They always took care of me with good service and fat loaner cars, how hard would it to have just said "blah blah, all we can do is replace the sensor" before going through all the motions.
service writers lie and pretend to know stuff
- Thread starter Lumberg
- Start date
- Status
Originally Posted By: MrCritical
Lumberg is correct. If a dealer has to rely on new car profit to stay open, he'll probably be shutting the doors pretty quickly.
Absolutely. Dealers make next to nothing selling new cars.
The money is made in new car financing, used car sales, used car financing, and service dept.
Lumberg is correct. If a dealer has to rely on new car profit to stay open, he'll probably be shutting the doors pretty quickly.
Absolutely. Dealers make next to nothing selling new cars.
The money is made in new car financing, used car sales, used car financing, and service dept.
Originally Posted By: Lumberg
Note that the worst incidents in my case happened at Toyota stealerships.
Doesnt surprise me one bit and I tend to feel the same way about toyota servicemen. Just had a bad experience with them today which I do not want to waste any more of my time thinking about but it was enough that I have decided to stay away from toyota as much as possible from now on and find a good local shop. I find toyota servicemen to be surprisingly incompetent to where they dont know what to tell you in many cases and tell you the wrong thing in some cases also, they tell you one thing and then later another that totally contradicts what was said previously, and are poor listeners to where misunderstandings happen that waste a lot of time. For the record Im not much more pleased with honda servicemen either although they are not as bad from my experience. I have yet to leave dealer service feeling pleased which is how it should be but instead I always drive home feeling either disrespected, disgusted, disappointed, or sometimes downright raped.
Note that the worst incidents in my case happened at Toyota stealerships.
Doesnt surprise me one bit and I tend to feel the same way about toyota servicemen. Just had a bad experience with them today which I do not want to waste any more of my time thinking about but it was enough that I have decided to stay away from toyota as much as possible from now on and find a good local shop. I find toyota servicemen to be surprisingly incompetent to where they dont know what to tell you in many cases and tell you the wrong thing in some cases also, they tell you one thing and then later another that totally contradicts what was said previously, and are poor listeners to where misunderstandings happen that waste a lot of time. For the record Im not much more pleased with honda servicemen either although they are not as bad from my experience. I have yet to leave dealer service feeling pleased which is how it should be but instead I always drive home feeling either disrespected, disgusted, disappointed, or sometimes downright raped.
Originally Posted By: MrCritical
The hardest thing to teach a salesman or service advisor at a dealership is how to say "I don't know". But then they follow up with "I'll find out".
Sales people and service writers aren't my favorite people, but the problem you just described is a universal human condition. Can't hang that one on them.
The hardest thing to teach a salesman or service advisor at a dealership is how to say "I don't know". But then they follow up with "I'll find out".
Sales people and service writers aren't my favorite people, but the problem you just described is a universal human condition. Can't hang that one on them.
Any employee at our place caught in any type lying/cheating the customer ect. is quickly shown the door.
The newest salesperson has been there about 7 years, the oldest since the doors opened over 20 years ago. The parts manager, general manager, service manager, and used car manager have been there since the first day.
The owner goes over every auto sales transaction, repair order, and big ticket parts sale. He is known to call an employee and ask questions at any time, and you'd better have the right answer.
A customer who is not satisfied with an employees explanation has his problem turned over to a manager. If the manager hasn't satisfied the customer, the owner gets involved. If there's any chance of honest misunderstanding on the customer's part on any item/service he/she paid for, they are likely to get a check for a full or partial refund and an apology.
I gotta hand it to him. He can spot a fake or liar a mile away. And I've never seen him take a dime he didn't earn.
The newest salesperson has been there about 7 years, the oldest since the doors opened over 20 years ago. The parts manager, general manager, service manager, and used car manager have been there since the first day.
The owner goes over every auto sales transaction, repair order, and big ticket parts sale. He is known to call an employee and ask questions at any time, and you'd better have the right answer.
A customer who is not satisfied with an employees explanation has his problem turned over to a manager. If the manager hasn't satisfied the customer, the owner gets involved. If there's any chance of honest misunderstanding on the customer's part on any item/service he/she paid for, they are likely to get a check for a full or partial refund and an apology.
I gotta hand it to him. He can spot a fake or liar a mile away. And I've never seen him take a dime he didn't earn.
Mr Critical, there are more honest ones around that the common perception. The problem is that a person who does their job efficiently and honestly isn't as memorable as an incompetent crook.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: blackcherry06
I work with a poor soul that knows absolutely ZERO about even the basics in vehicle maintenance. His F-150 started running rough, in need of a tune-up. He goes to an independent shop around the corner from our office that RAPED him for a tune-up on that truck. I realize there is some labor involved in getting the spark plugs in and out of that engine (thanks to a stupid design by Ford) but $600 for a tune-up and oil change is pure rape. Spark plugs, air and oil filter, and some dino oil..and the rest is labor.
Unfortunately, the average person doesn't really know what's involved so when they're quoted a price like that, they assume that it's a difficult job and therefore worth it. I nearly passed out when he told me what he paid. It's the only time I can recall saying that someone would have actually been better off going to a dealership.
I'm assuming it's a 4.6L or a 5.4L......
It's not a stupid design, it places the plug in a very good location relative to the intake valve. Ford first used this plug location in the 1960's on the 427 SOHC.
It's only problematic if the plugs are in there too long and the seize in, otherwise, you remove the coil packs (or wires on the older ones), a plug socket with a rubber isolator and an extension, and they come right out. It's not that difficult. The back ones (they get a bit under the cowling) are a bit harder, but I've seen FAR worse.
It seems to be hit and miss with dealerships, just like it's hit and miss with independents. I know a few good independents and one VERY good one, who used to work for a dealership but couldn't stay because the dishonesty of the place drove him up the wall.
The local Ford dealership is decent, but the one GM dealership is a NIGHTMARE.
I work with a poor soul that knows absolutely ZERO about even the basics in vehicle maintenance. His F-150 started running rough, in need of a tune-up. He goes to an independent shop around the corner from our office that RAPED him for a tune-up on that truck. I realize there is some labor involved in getting the spark plugs in and out of that engine (thanks to a stupid design by Ford) but $600 for a tune-up and oil change is pure rape. Spark plugs, air and oil filter, and some dino oil..and the rest is labor.
Unfortunately, the average person doesn't really know what's involved so when they're quoted a price like that, they assume that it's a difficult job and therefore worth it. I nearly passed out when he told me what he paid. It's the only time I can recall saying that someone would have actually been better off going to a dealership.
I'm assuming it's a 4.6L or a 5.4L......
It's not a stupid design, it places the plug in a very good location relative to the intake valve. Ford first used this plug location in the 1960's on the 427 SOHC.
It's only problematic if the plugs are in there too long and the seize in, otherwise, you remove the coil packs (or wires on the older ones), a plug socket with a rubber isolator and an extension, and they come right out. It's not that difficult. The back ones (they get a bit under the cowling) are a bit harder, but I've seen FAR worse.
It seems to be hit and miss with dealerships, just like it's hit and miss with independents. I know a few good independents and one VERY good one, who used to work for a dealership but couldn't stay because the dishonesty of the place drove him up the wall.
The local Ford dealership is decent, but the one GM dealership is a NIGHTMARE.
Last edited by a moderator:
btw if its a 3v motor in that f150, those plugs are about $25 each for motorcraft.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Yup, the 3V "horseshoe" plugs are apparently quite expensive.
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,799
Originally Posted By: Lumberg
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Well, don't hold back. Tell us how you really feel.
touche?
Oh! I was just enjoying your graphic display of your thoughts on the topic. It was rather detailed.
What I forgot to add was a
I don't know about the solutions to this problem. Back when I went to auto school, part of the training was a service writer course. It trained you how to ask the right questions when a customer complained about something. Now I'm sure that they have like training these days, but one would be hard pressed to find someone with true mechanical ability and knowledge sitting at the desk instead of making larger coin in the bays. The training costs too much not to put it to work. I imagine if you had mechanics that developed the appropriate people skills over their carrier that they would make fine service advisers in retirement.
Now as far as up selling, that's the problem with having them get a % of the billing. The basic concept is fine ..and an ethical service adviser can save a customer money by getting needed services done in a timely manner while they're there for any reason (inspection, oil change, whatever). The guy should look up the record and see just what's up with that customer's vehicle and see if they want to get it out of the way while it's in the shop. They wouldn't (nor would the dealer) engage in "fluff" sales of senseless and expensive "pretend" services that are purely there to "get while the getting is good". It's always the flip side of the coin. What's supposed to be a share of the throughput of the shop ends up being the primary incentive to up sell everything.
The whole dealership process just doesn't promote goodwill between merchant and customer. The odds of you actually developing any relationship are very slim and the ante will tend to be very high.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Well, don't hold back. Tell us how you really feel.
touche?
Oh! I was just enjoying your graphic display of your thoughts on the topic. It was rather detailed.
What I forgot to add was a
I don't know about the solutions to this problem. Back when I went to auto school, part of the training was a service writer course. It trained you how to ask the right questions when a customer complained about something. Now I'm sure that they have like training these days, but one would be hard pressed to find someone with true mechanical ability and knowledge sitting at the desk instead of making larger coin in the bays. The training costs too much not to put it to work. I imagine if you had mechanics that developed the appropriate people skills over their carrier that they would make fine service advisers in retirement.
Now as far as up selling, that's the problem with having them get a % of the billing. The basic concept is fine ..and an ethical service adviser can save a customer money by getting needed services done in a timely manner while they're there for any reason (inspection, oil change, whatever). The guy should look up the record and see just what's up with that customer's vehicle and see if they want to get it out of the way while it's in the shop. They wouldn't (nor would the dealer) engage in "fluff" sales of senseless and expensive "pretend" services that are purely there to "get while the getting is good". It's always the flip side of the coin. What's supposed to be a share of the throughput of the shop ends up being the primary incentive to up sell everything.
The whole dealership process just doesn't promote goodwill between merchant and customer. The odds of you actually developing any relationship are very slim and the ante will tend to be very high.
There's another factor to consider that's often overlooked.
It's called the "buying more car than you can afford, so you can't afford to do the scheduled maintenance when it's due" syndrome.
The salesmen tell me it's almost impossible to get a large percentage of their customers to buy a vehicle in the price range that's right for them. Everyone wants the $55k Denali.
As a result, I've got customers riding around in three year old vehicles that are out of warranty. They can barely afford the notes, should have bought a lot less vehicle, but the finance companies approved their car loans just like the folks who bought too much house.
They have $500 power windows that don't work, $1000 ABS modules that have gone out, and mom and the kids are sweating because of the $1200 a/c repair that's needed.
Wait till junior gets his driver license, and the insurance bill for the 4WD SUV doubles. And if he has a fender bender, look for it to triple.
It's called the "buying more car than you can afford, so you can't afford to do the scheduled maintenance when it's due" syndrome.
The salesmen tell me it's almost impossible to get a large percentage of their customers to buy a vehicle in the price range that's right for them. Everyone wants the $55k Denali.
As a result, I've got customers riding around in three year old vehicles that are out of warranty. They can barely afford the notes, should have bought a lot less vehicle, but the finance companies approved their car loans just like the folks who bought too much house.
They have $500 power windows that don't work, $1000 ABS modules that have gone out, and mom and the kids are sweating because of the $1200 a/c repair that's needed.
Wait till junior gets his driver license, and the insurance bill for the 4WD SUV doubles. And if he has a fender bender, look for it to triple.
Well I just bought a '99 Chevy Malibu with 140,000 miles so hopefully no dealers in my near future.
we just had a classic example of a lying service adviser at my work today. one of our very honest advisers came in and asked me for a parts estimate on doing a timing belt job on a 05 Mazda 6 with a V6. i printed out the picture of the valve train showing that it is chain driven. he showed it to the customer. apparently an independent shop scared her into thinking that it was absolutely crucial to change the timing belt on her vehicle at 45k miles. she was very happy that we were honest and didn't try to take advantage of her. we even gave her the number for the Bureau of Automotive Repair so she can file a complaint against the shop that quoted her the repair.
Originally Posted By: bdcardinal
we just had a classic example of a lying service adviser at my work today. one of our very honest advisers came in and asked me for a parts estimate on doing a timing belt job on a 05 Mazda 6 with a V6. i printed out the picture of the valve train showing that it is chain driven. he showed it to the customer. apparently an independent shop scared her into thinking that it was absolutely crucial to change the timing belt on her vehicle at 45k miles. she was very happy that we were honest and didn't try to take advantage of her. we even gave her the number for the Bureau of Automotive Repair so she can file a complaint against the shop that quoted her the repair.
The shop will just say that they were talking about the fan belt and the customer is a stupid idiot. Get it, "fan" belt?
we just had a classic example of a lying service adviser at my work today. one of our very honest advisers came in and asked me for a parts estimate on doing a timing belt job on a 05 Mazda 6 with a V6. i printed out the picture of the valve train showing that it is chain driven. he showed it to the customer. apparently an independent shop scared her into thinking that it was absolutely crucial to change the timing belt on her vehicle at 45k miles. she was very happy that we were honest and didn't try to take advantage of her. we even gave her the number for the Bureau of Automotive Repair so she can file a complaint against the shop that quoted her the repair.
The shop will just say that they were talking about the fan belt and the customer is a stupid idiot. Get it, "fan" belt?
Gary I had no idea that the service reps get a % of the sale. I assumed they were only paid a salary and you know what they say about assumptions. No wonder theyre so eager to sell parts and service that arent needed. Thanks for the heads up.
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,799
Everyone gets a cut. That's the problem. In order to give a fair share for productivity you give everyone a base +. your service adviser is your front line service sales person and #1 customer interface. What is means is that his take home pay is into the same claw and scratch rat race to get everything they can per event. It's fine when your clientèle are wealthy and would rather pay a rountine $400 bill than ever have themselves inconvenience with an unscheduled service call ..but cuts the average jerk with sticker shock. A 60k (or maybe it was 80k) service on a minivan ran my buddy about $1000 with the trans service (it also included brake service as part of state inspection). He barely had room on his credit card and surely didn't have a grand in the bank.
Credit is the reason these things cost so much. You give a dog a bone every time it rolls over, it's going to roll over every time it wants a bone. It's about bones ..or rather ..getting boned and p'wn'd.
A serpentine belt replacement is well over $100 on a simple setup. It's no wonder the tightwad crowd aren't lazy when it comes to this stuff. You can't even hand them the gravy jobs to establish a relationship for when you really need them. Every event is typically a drainer to the nth degree
Now this is totally different if you use their parts dept. There the guys will eventually recognize a good customer or frequent flyer. I get the best price that the parts manager can give me. He worked with me at the Jeep dealership, and I followed him to the new combined Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep bigger dealership that formed when the two smaller outfits merged. The parts dept has the advantage of way fewer people hanging on the bill. The manager also cuts out his parts counter guys when I buy something and he writes it. YMMV
I don't begrudge anyone making a living in whatever way they can legally manage, but this squid cannot write the ink that this sector wants for service. They seem to have enough business, so I must live in a radically different and disadvantaged layer of the socio-economic divide.
Credit is the reason these things cost so much. You give a dog a bone every time it rolls over, it's going to roll over every time it wants a bone. It's about bones ..or rather ..getting boned and p'wn'd.
A serpentine belt replacement is well over $100 on a simple setup. It's no wonder the tightwad crowd aren't lazy when it comes to this stuff. You can't even hand them the gravy jobs to establish a relationship for when you really need them. Every event is typically a drainer to the nth degree
Now this is totally different if you use their parts dept. There the guys will eventually recognize a good customer or frequent flyer. I get the best price that the parts manager can give me. He worked with me at the Jeep dealership, and I followed him to the new combined Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep bigger dealership that formed when the two smaller outfits merged. The parts dept has the advantage of way fewer people hanging on the bill. The manager also cuts out his parts counter guys when I buy something and he writes it. YMMV
I don't begrudge anyone making a living in whatever way they can legally manage, but this squid cannot write the ink that this sector wants for service. They seem to have enough business, so I must live in a radically different and disadvantaged layer of the socio-economic divide.
This comes as no shock. Gary Allan nails it again.
When I worked for the gov't I used to complain that the size of carrot at the end of the stick isn't sized appropriately to the effort required. Meaning, the top 10% of performers got say a 6% raise while the middle 80% got 5%.
So I did something about it and started my own business--immediate performance-based compensation. I'm a big fan of this regime. However, I am also a victim of it.
One of the classic ways to make money is information asymmetry.
Originally Posted By: wikipedia
Information asymmetry deals with the study of decisions in transactions where one party has more or better information than the other. This creates an imbalance in power in transactions which can sometimes cause the transactions to go awry.
I think in general there are two kinds: the kind where the less knowledgeable party finds out later (like buying a used car, the 2nd floor bathroom in your new house leaks into your dining room after a month, etc) and the kind where the victims never find out.
This is the latter--so many people know so little about cars that it's like shooting fish in a bucket. There are so many different cars and situations that it's hard to compare.
And of course fear mongering is a favorite tactic of the information possessors.
I know soooo many people that understand quite well that I know a lot about car repair. No matter what, however, they always get everything done at the dealer "just to make sure."
Just make sure you bring some lube!
When I worked for the gov't I used to complain that the size of carrot at the end of the stick isn't sized appropriately to the effort required. Meaning, the top 10% of performers got say a 6% raise while the middle 80% got 5%.
So I did something about it and started my own business--immediate performance-based compensation. I'm a big fan of this regime. However, I am also a victim of it.
One of the classic ways to make money is information asymmetry.
Originally Posted By: wikipedia
Information asymmetry deals with the study of decisions in transactions where one party has more or better information than the other. This creates an imbalance in power in transactions which can sometimes cause the transactions to go awry.
I think in general there are two kinds: the kind where the less knowledgeable party finds out later (like buying a used car, the 2nd floor bathroom in your new house leaks into your dining room after a month, etc) and the kind where the victims never find out.
This is the latter--so many people know so little about cars that it's like shooting fish in a bucket. There are so many different cars and situations that it's hard to compare.
And of course fear mongering is a favorite tactic of the information possessors.
I know soooo many people that understand quite well that I know a lot about car repair. No matter what, however, they always get everything done at the dealer "just to make sure."
Just make sure you bring some lube!
Local indy shop full by 8:15am?
We book 4-5 days in advance at the dealership. Except for oil changes, brakes, ect.
There are some good indy shops locally. As long as your car is 5 years old or older. Anything newer, they don't have the tools or training to diagnose or repair your vehicle.
Diesels, hybrids, transaxle, anything that runs through a Body Control Module? Forget it. It's the dealer or you don't get it repaired. Need a PCM or air bag module reprogrammed? They can't do it at any of our local indys.
That's why you pay them 10 bucks an hour less.
We book 4-5 days in advance at the dealership. Except for oil changes, brakes, ect.
There are some good indy shops locally. As long as your car is 5 years old or older. Anything newer, they don't have the tools or training to diagnose or repair your vehicle.
Diesels, hybrids, transaxle, anything that runs through a Body Control Module? Forget it. It's the dealer or you don't get it repaired. Need a PCM or air bag module reprogrammed? They can't do it at any of our local indys.
That's why you pay them 10 bucks an hour less.
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,799
Locally it's 30% less. The local dealer is (iirc) about $100/hour. My premier indy (all data and all that) is $65+/-. My old wrench is $30 unless he's doing street rod work ...but he does what he wants and turns down some jobs if he doesn't feel like it. You should have seen the bee-atchin' when he did his wife's PT Cruiser timing belt. The dealer alternative was $1100. It would have been easier to drop the engine to do the work. R&P setup is about $250+ parts and he's the only guy who anyone trusts in the area.
Places that depend on volume get desperate when the volume dips. You build monster to make more money ..and you do, then you claw for more when there's less to be had. Funny how the sword is only supposed to cut one way
..but I do agree that a dealer has a decent burden keeping "state of the art" in terms of equipment and training ..but I also have to look at most sales dept and their conduct and think that the culture that they belong to is fully endorsed by the owner ..who also sends that attitude to every aspect of the enterprise.
Places that depend on volume get desperate when the volume dips. You build monster to make more money ..and you do, then you claw for more when there's less to be had. Funny how the sword is only supposed to cut one way
..but I do agree that a dealer has a decent burden keeping "state of the art" in terms of equipment and training ..but I also have to look at most sales dept and their conduct and think that the culture that they belong to is fully endorsed by the owner ..who also sends that attitude to every aspect of the enterprise.
- Status
Similar threads
