Regarding 1st oil change on new vehicle...

[simple_gifts]

I guess it depends on the vehicle. With some engines a significant amount of old oil is left behind with the previous filter. Why take the chance of contaminating the new oil? Maybe the cartridge or Hengst style filters are different and minimal oil is left behind.

I do know that on some Toyotas there is more of a procedure to change the cartridge filter......i.e. more effort as compared to others cartridge set ups or spin on filters. From my simple POV I am just trying to understand the logic of not changing it with the oil.

I would also be using a Toyota branded filter while the car is still under warranty.

"Contaminating" new oil with 5K oil that's rated to go 10K? Mixing is more like it.

When people decided to do an oil change it is not like the oil, that was minutes earlier properly lubricating the engine, curdles.

And yes, perhaps depends on the vehicle, however, no one will ever convince me oil run 5K when speced to go 10K "needs to be purged" JMO.

FYI: i've done (3) 8-10K OCI with (1) fram ultra, simple drain and fill.

 

[demarpaint]

That's not my approach or many others on here. Has nothing to do with cheapness.

HPL and Amsoil users etc. are not usually cheapskates . It's about not being obsessed to the point of being wasteful and anxious over frivolous nonsense.

Engine design, engineering , proper and clean assembly as well as QC. mean more for engine durability than obsessive oil changes to get your jollies off.

I'll play Devil's advocate here, before I begin this is not geared toward you, but if fits here. People will frown upon enthusiasts for dumping the factory fill early and state a lot of reasons why it is wasteful. Some of those people will look at a UOA that has high wear metals and comment about OCIs being too long, possible problems with the engine, and how damaging those wear metals can be while they're circulating in an engine for too long an OCI. Well it's those same wear metals from break in that an enthusiast is trying to get out, to prevent damage, even if the damage is slight. Now some of those people criticizing the people dumping the FF early will go out and spend big $$ on a boutique oil in hopes to keep their engine spotless and extend it's life. That is confusing to me, I want both of the two worlds.

 

[Zee09]

I'll play Devil's advocate here, before I begin this is not geared toward you, but if fits here. People will frown upon enthusiasts for dumping the factory fill early and state a lot of reasons why it is wasteful. Some of those people will look at a UOA that has high wear metals and comment about OCIs being too long, possible problems with the engine, and how damaging those wear metals can be while they're circulating in an engine for too long an OCI. Well it's those same wear metals from break in that an enthusiast is trying to get out, to prevent damage, even if the damage is slight. Now some of those people criticizing the people dumping the FF early will go out and spend big $$ on a boutique oil in hopes to keep their engine spotless and extend it's life. That is confusing to me, I want both of the two worlds.

No problem with that but those same people never dump the factory fill in the trans, cooling system, axles, and so on.

It's usually a feel good maneuver for them as their expertise is limited to something they can easily do with limited skill. And that isn't an attack either as not everyone is equipped or skilled to do those.

In today's world the trans will usually crap out before the engine... But you never see that as part of the new car dump and refill process

 

[demarpaint]

No problem with that but those same people never dump the factory fill in the trans, cooling system, axles, and so on.

It's usually a feel good maneuver for them as their expertise is limited to something they can easily do with limited skill. And that isn't an attack either as not everyone is equipped or skilled to do those.

In today's world the trans will usually crap out before the engine... But you never see that as part of the new car dump and refill process

Not here, I dumped the FF very early in my 2016 JKR, and at 10K miles the differentials, ATF, and transfer case fluids were drained and refilled. I'll do that same with the next new car I buy.

 

[bhvrdr]

You post and ask so hopefully you don’t mind opinions…

And this is mine:
Use a Toyota oil filter.
If there is any one issue that a dealership can use to stall an engine warranty repair is an “off-brand” oil filter.

Good advice. While under warranty even if you DO have an oem oil filter that fails and causes damage you will be covered.

If an aftermarket oil filter fails and causes damage it would be on you.

Nothing wrong with Toyota filters.

Interesting the increased surface area of the OEM here...

 

[B6_Dolphin]

Recent Blackstone results from my '23 Audi RS5 Coupe w/2.9L TT V6 w/1,125 miles:

Nothing surprising... high Cu & Si.

 

[LDB]

And what is the value of the confidence and peace of mind provided by an early change compared to the cost of the early change?

 

[B6_Dolphin]

And what is the value of the confidence and peace of mind provided by an early change compared to the cost of the early change?

Obviously decades ago, but I remember I did the initial oil and filter change on our new '97 Cavalier Z24, which had the 2.2L Quad 4. When I removed the drain plug, I was surprised to find a metal curl stuck to the drain plug, which had a magnet. Needless to say, I was glad I was witness to this left-over piece from the manufacturing process, and that it was permanently removed from the crankcase.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Has Fram come back that far from "the dead"? It was supposedly "the worst" back in the day.

Might want to check out the oil filter forum more often.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Think it would be safe to run the oil filter out to 10,000 miles? I plan on changing the oil again at 5K with Total Quartz 0W20 when the time rolls around.

The Fram Endurance is high efficiency and rated for 25K miles, which means it has a high holding capacity. Not even a new engine breaking in is going to develope enough debris to over whelm that filter at 9K miles, only maybe if the engine was destroying itself from some major abnormal mechanical wear problem it might, but not from normal break-in.

If you do the 1st oil and filter change at 1000 miles, then the majority of the break-in debris is already out of the motor with that oil & filter change. The FE would only have 9K miles on it when the car has 10K on the odometer. 9K is a cake walk for the FE.

 

[dnewton3]

If you do the 1st oil and filter change at 1000 miles, then the majority of the break-in debris is already out of the motor with that oil & filter change.

I would disagree with that Zee, but I guess it would depend on how you're defining "majority" in this sense.
We see plenty of UOAs that show it can take multiple OCIs to get break-in wear to drop down to "normal" levels. That would indicate that break-in does not finish it's "majority" of wear in the first 1k miles. But what we don't know (and I comment in my post below), is how much is residual break-in metals which need flushed out, versus how much is "new" break-in still occurring?

 

[dnewton3]

Lots of differing opinions, as usual. I'm actually a bit surprised at dnewton3, who normally seems to favor practical return on investment type logic. Here, he admits no data to substantiate early OCI on new engines, yet he chooses his comfort level of doing shorter initial oil/filter changes.

I clearly explained why I do this ... allow me to quote myself ...

I typically do early OCIs on new equipment that I intend to run UOAs on. I want a few flush/fill cycles before I start the UOAs, so that break-in metals hopefully have lowered before the UOAs are taken.

The sooner a few OCIs flush out the break-in materials, the sooner I can get to "normal" UOA expectations. The ROI for me is collecting data sooner.

Let's look at some hypothetical examples, both using three drain/fill cycles as the constant, and duration (miles) as the variable:

Ex 1
OCI at 1k miles, 3k miles and 5k miles. That's three oil and filter changes; three drain/fill cycles. After that, it's likely that the break-in metals are mostly gone. So at 5k miles, I can start an OCI load that would then be reasonably eligible for UOAs, easily in less than a year.

Ex 2
OCI at 10k miles, 20k miles, 30k miles. Those three oil and filter changes now take me 30k miles, and probably 2+ years before I can start collecting data.


There is no study I'm aware of that shows a definitive relationship between the OCI counts vs. the OCI duration regarding break-in wear. So, we now theorize about what's more of a contributor? The number of times you change oil, or the miles driven between those changes? What we don't have data for is how much residual metal exists from new manufacturing, and how many cycles of drain/fill does it take to mitigate that situation, versus how much "new" break-in occurs in the first X,xxx miles of operation.

Anecdotally, I see examples that indicate perhaps it's the drain/fill cycles which bring a quick end to the break-in metal levels and not the miles driven. There is probably some manner of a "sweet spot" where the two have a mutually beneficial peak period, but we'll never know because this just isn't something that's going to be properly studied; there's no reward for an OEM to give a hoot about this topic.


My summary regarding new engines:
- if a person has no real interest in doing UOAs, they might as well follow the OEM schedule for oil and filter changes
- if a person has interest in getting "normal" UOA data as soon as practical, then a few short duration OCIs will get you there much sooner

 

[TiGeo]

I don't do early changes but if I did I'd change the filter too.

 

[Zee09]

Not here, I dumped the FF very early in my 2016 JKR, and at 10K miles the differentials, ATF, and transfer case fluids were drained and refilled. I'll do that same with the next new car I buy.

Looks like we agree after all.
Puzzled as to why you waited until 10k as the damage was already done..

See you in Florida...

 

[BAJA_05]

I detect confusion …
Your plan is to put in the specialty Mobil 1 and FE filter now …
Run to 5k …
Change only the oil … run FE filter to 10k …
That it ?

That is what I was leading to do. Hence getting the feedback.

 

[demarpaint]

Looks like we agree after all.
Puzzled as to why you waited until 10k as the damage was already done..

See you in Florida...

I back checked with a transmission builder I was assured I was doing the right thing, the bulk of transmission wear metals is shed in the first 10K miles, and the building process is a lot cleaner than engine building. That's how I arrived at that number, I ran with it for the differentials and the transfer case while it was off the ground. FTR odds are we're not moving to Florida so we might not catch up.

 

[Zee09]

I back checked with a transmission builder I was assured I was doing the right thing, the bulk of transmission wear metals is shed in the first 10K miles, and the building process is a lot cleaner than engine building. That's how I arrived at that number, I ran with it for the differentials and the transfer case while it was off the ground. FTR odds are we're not moving to Florida so we might not catch up.

If I was you, I would have dumped it at 500 miles. Better safe than sorry...

 

[ZeeOSix]

I don't do early changes but if I did I'd change the filter too.

If that's in reference to the OP, he's talking about changing the oil and also the filter at 1000 miles.

Sidenote - it's also a good time to cut the filter open to inspect for any abnormal debris. Probably won't find anything major, but if something is going wrong it would show up in the filter.

 

[ZeeOSix]

I would disagree with that Zee, but I guess it would depend on how you're defining "majority" in this sense.

What I meant by "majority" is that the break-in debris created in the first 1,000 miles should be the majority of the total break-in wear over the first 5,000 or even 10,000 miles.

I agree that most engines aren't "fully broken in" until around 5K - 10K miles. I tracked the fuel mileage in my Tacoma from the day I bought it new, and around 5K-6K miles the gas mileage all of a sudden increased noticeably, which I chalked up to the engine concluding a full break-in since all other factors were pretty much constant (same oil brand & grade, same fuel, same daily commute routine to work, etc).

We see plenty of UOAs that show it can take multiple OCIs to get break-in wear to drop down to "normal" levels. That would indicate that break-in does not finish it's "majority" of wear in the first 1k miles. But what we don't know (and I comment in my post below), is how much is residual break-in metals which need flushed out, versus how much is "new" break-in still occurring?

Typical Blackstone type UOAs only see wear particles that are ~5u and smaller. On all but one of my new vehicles, which I typically did around 1,000 to 1,200 miles on the first OCI, I always see lots of "sparkles" in the oil on the first oil change. What surprised me was on my 5.0L Coyote V8 I did the first oil change at 2,200 miles, and the oil barely had any "sparkles" at all in the oil compared to other new vehicles I've done the first oil change on around 1,000-1,200 miles. Of course, the level and quality of machining and fitment of the parts on each engine can vary, but this Coyote runs very quiet (no typewriter tick, etc) and runs super strong. Could be it was a manufacturing QA unicorn.

Hard to say what the size of those"sparkle" particles are in the oil, but it's all the break-in debris that the oil filter can't catch and retain, and it's visible to the naked eyes so the majority of it must be larger than 5u. I'd bet most factory installed oil filters are not really very efficient, so a lot of the visible break-in "sparkle" in the oil should be particles much larger than 5u if they are visible to the naked eyes. The point is, on the next oil change there isn't any sign of "sparkles" in the oil, so that's why I say the majority of the break-in wear probably occurs in that first 1,000 miles. The rate of break-in in the first 1K miles must be higher than the break-in rate from miles 1,000 to 2,000 for instance. If it was constant, the OCI between 1K and 2K miles would look just a "sparkly" ... but I have never seen that ever happen. Even if I do the first OCI at 1K miles, and the second OCI at 5K miles, there is hardly any visible "sparkles" in the oil, which means the majority of that visible break-in wear was seen in the first 1K miles of break-in compared to the rate seen between 1K and 5K miles.

Obviously more break-in is happening after that first 1K miles and is still going on in the 5u or less size range, and still shows up on the UOA, but I'd bet the rate of the 5u and less break-in debris also falls off between a 1K and 2K OCI and beyond. I'd have to see a graph of UOA wear metals (in ppm/1000 miles format) to see if the wear metals break-in rate falls off after an initial 1K OCI. Do you have any data that shows the ppm/1000 miles on a vehicle that had an OCI and UOA at the 1K, 3K, 5K and 10K mile marks for example? That would show how the 5u and smaller wear rates change and fall-off with increased break-in mileage based on UOAs.

 

[PontiacHO]

My opinion again… The debris left behind by the factory machining processes create a great deal of the new engine “sparkles”. I’ve personally rebuilt engines that came back from the machine shop (hot tank, boring-align and cylinder, decking the block) and would use dawn liquid to wash the blocks thoroughly. The amount of machine dust is frightening. Dry the block with compressed air and swab the cylinder bores with a Dexron soaked rag. More debris released from the cylinders due to final hone process. Saying all that to say in my opinion it’s more machine dust than wear in.