Reason NOT to use Amsoil

[sbergman27]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
These are areas of gray that can frighten some people,

These are areas of gray that would frighten most reasonable people who have lives which extend beyond any petroleum obsession they might or might not have.

 

[sbergman27]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Given the really good long drain UOAs posted hereon using various Amsoil products, I don't think you can question the quality of the oil.

You are implying that:

1) Cheap, consumer grade UOA's are reliable indicators of overall oil performance.

2) Amsoil puts in a good showing in them.

The first point deserves a thread of its own.

Regarding the second... do Amsoil's non-XL oils even look like they would meet the Phosphorus and Zinc requirements that the auto industry just recently threatened to withdraw support for API (as opposed to ILSAC) certifications over?

-Steve

 

[BobFout]

Originally Posted By: sbergman27
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Given the really good long drain UOAs posted hereon using various Amsoil products, I don't think you can question the quality of the oil.

You are implying that:

1) Cheap, consumer grade UOA's are reliable indicators of overall oil performance.

2) Amsoil puts in a good showing in them.

The first point deserves a thread of its own.

Regarding the second... do Amsoil's non-XL oils even look like they would meet the Phosphorus and Zinc requirements that the auto industry just recently threatened to withdraw support for API (as opposed to ILSAC) certifications over?

-Steve


1. True
2. True

I'm sure there's VOAs here of the oils in question if you're interested in additive level information.

Here's one of their CJ-4/SM oils:

 

[NHHEMI]

Let's cut right to the chase. Here is a copy of the 2010 Equinox( OP's vehicle and what sparked this current debate )owner's manual concerning oil changes. It is VERY specific about what must be done for warranty coverage...

Page 1:

Page2:

1 - use an oil that "meets" GM6094M( not certified but "meets" - this is where MMA plays in with meets/exceeds - mfg's own standard not 3rd party like API so does not have to be certified )

2 - use 5W-30( specifically states DO NOT use other weights )

3 - API Starburst( specificallly states to use an oil with the Starburst - no "meets" mentioned - says use an oil that carries the Starburst - to do so it MUST be certified! ).

4 - Specifically spells it all out at the end. Nothing amiguous about it...

Notice: Use only engine oil identified as meeting GM Standard GM6094M and showing the American Petroleum Institute Certified For Gasoline Engines starburst symbol. Failure to use the recommended oil can result in engine damage not covered by the vehicle warranty.

5 - As to mileage on THIS vehicle please see page 2 from above. GM now uses the OLM or 1 year. There is no longer a max month/mileage clause. So, the OP actually could get away with going a year IF his OLM allows for it. If the OLM tripped before the year was up then the oil needs to be changed technically.

It is possible that, if driving under the best conditions, the oil life system might not indicate that an oil change is necessary for over a year. However, the engine oil and filter must be changed at least once a year and at this time the system must be reset.

NOTE - page 2 ends before the lastf ew words about the year clause. I am not attaching page 3 for a few words. Page 3 had this... once a year and at this time the system must be reset.

Now, lets use my truck( 2008 Ram 1500 )as an example of when a mfg is specific about a time frame. My truck has an OLM as well and Dodge does say to follow it BUT they add a clause stating never to exceed 6 months/6000 miles on any oil change. So even if the OLM has not tripped once I hit 6 months or 6000 miles I have to change it( I am not copying the manual page for this - people can believe or disbelieve as they see fit ).

I have never come across an owner's manual that didn't just spell it out for you. Now granted I am talking limited mfg's here( Chrysler/Dodge, GM, Ford, Toyota )but they were always clear.

 

[nitehawk55]

Starburst shmarburst.....don't really mean [censored] and it's more of a marketing thing . Amsoil has been on the market long enough that it has a proven track record . I don't see any engine failure horror stories posted all over the internet about Amsoil or most any other known modern engine oil out there . Do your own research ( other than here ) and use what you feel is best to you .

 

[Pablo]

Quote:
Failure to use the recommended oil can result in engine damage not covered by the vehicle warranty.


Yes absolutely clear. IF damage occurs from the oil itself, the manufacturer won't cover you. Not from the mere use of the oil.

 

[21Rouge]

Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
It is VERY specific about what must be done for warranty coverage...

2 - use 5W-30( specifically states DO NOT use other weights )


I don't mean to be picky but you are permitted to use a 0W30 grade in certain circumstances.

But as has been discussed before do you see any wiggle room to be able to use a Starburst API 6094M 0W30 *anytime* in the year.

 

[sbergman27]

Originally Posted By: BobFout
They cannot void the entire powertrain warranty for simply using a non-spec oil. The lubricant must be shown to have caused the damage. Factory defects must still be covered. In the case of a lubricant related issue, Amsoil picks up the tab.

Who picks up the tab for your legal fees and compensates you for the time you're without a car while dickering with the dealership over whose fault it is? You can avoid all that by just using the good quality oil prescribed by the manufacturer. Even if you win the legal case, or Amsoil eventually picks up the cost of the new engine... you've still really lost. "Warranty issues" remains a very valid reason not to use uncertified oil, including most of Amsoil's products.

 

[sbergman27]

Originally Posted By: Pablo
Yes absolutely clear. IF damage occurs from the oil itself, the manufacturer won't cover you. Not from the mere use of the oil.

Why pay way more money for oil to gain the privilege of having a rough warranty experience from using an uncertified oil and, if you follow Amsoil's advice, not changing it like you're supposed to? It's a silly and illogical thing for anyone to do, considering the wide availability of extremely high quality out there that won't cause you these problems, or even cause you to have to go through such logical contortions to satisfiy yourself that you'd probably win in the end.

I can't help but think of die-hard Amsoil fans as being the lemmings, and Amsoil as being the ocean.

 

[Spector]

the probability of a catastrophic engine failure due to oil is about the same as me living to 100. It is not worth a hill of beans worrying about and if it does than do whatever lets you sleep at night. based upon some of the bulk oil [censored] that dealers put in about the only diff is that you have the dealer saying they did the oil change and they will cover their butt. the quality of the oil will never be questioned if a dealer did it but perhaps should be.

 

[c3po]

Originally Posted By: sbergman27
Originally Posted By: BobFout
They cannot void the entire powertrain warranty for simply using a non-spec oil. The lubricant must be shown to have caused the damage. Factory defects must still be covered. In the case of a lubricant related issue, Amsoil picks up the tab.

Who picks up the tab for your legal fees and compensates you for the time you're without a car while dickering with the dealership over whose fault it is? You can avoid all that by just using the good quality oil prescribed by the manufacturer. Even if you win the legal case, or Amsoil eventually picks up the cost of the new engine... you've still really lost. "Warranty issues" remains a very valid reason not to use uncertified oil, including most of Amsoil's products.


I called the Amsoil Tech Line this morning and got some interesting feedback.

He told me that if a lubricated part failed while using Amsoil Motor Oil, and lets say we are doing a one year or 25,000 mile OCI with Amsoil 0W-30 Signature Series Oil while the car is under the manufactures warranty which calls for a 5000 mile OCI. Lets say we had a lubricated part fail at like 19,000 miles.

You are going to have to send in an oil sample to Amsoil, since the manufacturer is going to say you did not follow the OCI in the owner's manual and that is why the part failed, so your warranty is voided, or we are not covering it under warranty.

So the manufacturer, lets say Ford, is going to blame the oil for the part failure, if the UOA looks o.k. then Amsoil is going to want to investigate why the lubricated part failed, they may even send out an investigator to check everything out.

The Amsoil Tech Guy said this process could easily take about 6 months, I am thinking if Ford and Amsoil are fighting back and forth over who is to blame that this whole process could take a year or even 2 to 3 years to resolve, and on top of that the car is just sitting while everything is in limbo or being fought in court.

Anyone who thinks that it's as easy as Ford calling Amsoil up and blaming the oil for the problem on a Monday and Amsoil saying go ahead and fix the car and we will pay for it and you have the car back on Friday is DREAMING, its just not going to play out that way.

 

[daves87rs]

Originally Posted By: Spector
the probability of a catastrophic engine failure due to oil is about the same as me living to 100. It is not worth a hill of beans worrying about and if it does than do whatever lets you sleep at night. based upon some of the bulk oil [censored] that dealers put in about the only diff is that you have the dealer saying they did the oil change and they will cover their butt. the quality of the oil will never be questioned if a dealer did it but perhaps should be.



Agreed.

 

[daves87rs]

My local dealership gets quite a few people who bring in their own oil. Including Amsoil. And they have no issue with it, even if it is a new car. They've only had one oil failure in the last 5 years, due to an animal crawling in there....


The biggest concern would be the oil filter, and the time frame more than anything..

 

[21Rouge]

Originally Posted By: daves87rs
The biggest concern would be the oil filter,


Can you elaborate? Do after market filters raise eyebrows in the service dep't of the dealership?

 

[c3po]

http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g1363.pdf

I read this Amsoil Warranty and I believe this warranty does more to protect Amsoil than it does in protecting the consumer who buys Amsoil Motor Oil.

 

[sbergman27]

Originally Posted By: c3po
Anyone who thinks that it's as easy as Ford calling Amsoil up and blaming the oil for the problem on a Monday and Amsoil saying go ahead and fix the car and we will pay for it and you have the car back on Friday is DREAMING, its just not going to play out that way.

What I want to know is what is the compelling reason that some people look at this situation and decide that using Amsoil is still worth it? With all the oils out there of superlative quality, about which there is not even any question of them causing warranty complications... why, why, why do some people still think it makes sense to go with Amsoil's uncertified products?

What makes this behavior even weirder is that now Amsoil fans are saying that the chances of engine failure do to oil quality are miniscule. That's certainly true for any SM/ILSAC rated oil, and I'll be generous and say its probably true for Amsoil. So if the oil doesn't make that much difference, why go out on a limb to use the allegedly superior Amsoil, when even if it is superior it's not going to make any difference anyway, and is likely to cause extra warranty complications should the engine fail due to some engine defect.

None of this makes any sense at all, except in the context of some bizarre and irrational Amsophilia on the parts of certain people who are dead set on using Amsoil, for whatever reason, and then just rationalize away the problems to their own satisfaction. As Amsoil dealers happily act as a source of raw material for the rationalizations, and remind us on their sites that they accecpt Visa and Mastercard.

 

[Jehartley]

Don't forget about the XL line. This Amsoil product absolutely complies with warranty requirements.

 

[c3po]

If you are doing 5000 Mile OCI's just about any cheap oil is fine.

If you are doing 7500 mile OCI's then Pennzoil Platinum is just as good.

If you are doing 10,000 mile OCI's then Pennzoil Ultra would be good to use.

Of course if you are going to push an oil past the manufactures suggested OCI it may be wise to get a UOA done.

 

[prax]

Originally Posted By: Spector
the probability of a catastrophic engine failure due to oil is about the same as me living to 100. It is not worth a hill of beans worrying about and if it does than do whatever lets you sleep at night. based upon some of the bulk oil [censored] that dealers put in about the only diff is that you have the dealer saying they did the oil change and they will cover their butt. the quality of the oil will never be questioned if a dealer did it but perhaps should be.


-1

That's a broad and general statement. Just look at the UOA we're seeing from Nissan or DI engines. They don't look very good and a few engine failures wouldn't be surprising within the warranty period.

 

[NHHEMI]

Originally Posted By: Pablo
Quote:
Failure to use the recommended oil can result in engine damage not covered by the vehicle warranty.


Yes absolutely clear. IF damage occurs from the oil itself, the manufacturer won't cover you. Not from the mere use of the oil.



Right BUT the car mfg only has to say it IS an oil related issue which then puts the ball back in the customers court to prove otherwise. Part X failed because the owner did not follow our clearly outlined oil guidelines that would have prevented it by using the wrong oil and not changing it on time. Been there and seen it. That is all they have to do to put the customer on the defensive.

No cause of the engine noise could be found in my Sister's Impala and you can bet your butt if we didn't have proof of proper maintenance, WHEN THEY ASKED FOR IT, GM would never have replaced the engine. Thankfully we did it on time and even had the dealer do the work so the proof was already there and it was a quick end to the situation. Had we done the work ourselves and/or used the wrong oil or run extended OCI's no doubt in my mind at all my Sister was at best 50/50 getting the engine fixed and ONLY after a long fight.

In the end a customer might just win but as another poster brought up( c3po I think )the customer is the one who ultimately pays the price here as the car mfg, lawyers, and Amsoil( if you want to keep this all Amsoil ) fight over who is going to pay to fix the car. Even if the customer eventually wins they have probably spent more dollars fighting it than just paying to fix the problem to begin with. Certainly months and months, or even longer, will be spent fighting it. Not worth it to me. Just follow the very clear guidelines set forth in your vehicle's owner's manual while under warranty. After that do whatever you want.