Reason NOT to use Amsoil

[Gary Allan]

I have no personal experience to give a factual time frame for resolution.

..but if the UOA did indeed show a deficiency in the oil, then it should be a fairly short process.

 

[c3po]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
.but if the UOA did indeed show a deficiency in the oil, then it should be a fairly short process.


I recently talked with my Amsoil Rep about a scenario using Amsoil 0W-30 for one year or 25,000 miles, yes I know the oil is good for 1 year or 35,000 miles.

I said, if my owner's manual on my new car calls for 5000 mile OCI's and I have a lubricated part that fails and the manufacture says sorry you did not follow the Owner's Manual OCI am I up the creek.

I thought I had him stumped, but in typical Gary Allan Fashion he turned around with a great answer. He said if your Owner's Manual calls for a 5000 mile OCI then you can protect yourself by doing a UOA every 5000 miles, so lets say you have a problem at 16,000 miles and you have a UOA at 5000, 10,000, and 15,000 miles that shows the oil is fine then they cannot blame the oil, if you have the Documentation that the oil is fine then the manufacture cannot fight it and that will prove that the Lubricated part that failed was not the oil's fault.

Does Amsoil require someone doing extended drains to get a UOA done every 5000 miles or whatever mileage is stated in the owners manual, no.

But, I assume my Amsoil Dealer wants to look out for his customers and help them out in anyway to avoid problems, I asked him if any of his customers doing extended drains during the warranty period followed his advice, he said NO, they are too lazy, but he has told me that he has not had any of his customers have any warranty problems, but ya never know what can happen in the future.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Pablo
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
No dealers ever have records of failures. No salesman will admit knowing of a product failure, he makes a living off the product. Lets get real. They might talk about some minor issues, but never a real problem. Read through any of these boards, and see for yourself.


So now I'm lying?

It's real, let's keep it real - read through the boards - how many Amsoil failures are posted on an oil board?

I put up with people calling me names, calling me a liar, saying my customers are lemmings......bah....some of you guys just plain have your own bias, and only pretend you are neutral.


Let me clear something up here, how quick we are to over react. This is common in business, any business. I do some consulting work for paint companies, and have seen product failures of all kinds. Do you think for one minute it becomes public record, easy for all to see? ALL COMPANIES KEEP THEIR PROBLEMS WELL HIDDEN! This is not only about Amsoil! All companies try to protect themselves from paying out, Amsoil, Mobil, Pennzoil, everyone! The question here is who would pay out easier in the event of a problem? And would an oil with the proper certs make getting paid easier? Lots of opinions tossed around here.

I'm an Amsoil user, in a car under a factory warranty, so far no problems. If I thought the product was garbage I would have never tried it. So no I'm not calling you a liar. I also think Amsoil and others aren't going to broadcast to their reps any of their woes. It is also in a reps best interest to say something like, in the 20 years I've been selling Amsoil I've never come across a problem. Or we had a problem with a filter causing an oil light to come on, no damage, Amsoil replaced the filter and threw in a qt of top up oil. Or Amsoil has a great warranty, why worry? Pretty easy.

 

[Mokanic]

Originally Posted By: TaterandNoodles
Originally Posted By: Mokanic
After 20 years of working in the shops of new car dealers I KNOW they are familiar with the MM act. NEVER,and I repeat, NEVER when an engine failure under warranty in the shop did anyone up the ladder ask,"I wonder if this cutomer used an API certified oil." It just ain't happened. All they concern them selves with is whether there is enough evidence in the engine to indicate if that the customer neglected to perform the minimum maintenance to keep the motor alive. Someone has an axe to grind with Amsoil. Plain and simple. Amsoil,Schaeffer,Royal Purple,Redline,and even Crisco do way more testing and evaluating of their oils than the API ever would. Some of the sorriest oils known to man were sold with the little star on the bottle.


My personal experience.

Me: Car go boom!

Service manager: Well take a look. Here's a free loaner while your car is out of commission.

Later on the phone Service manager: you have a bad piston and that is why it only lasted 1 year and 19k miles. We are pulling it and sending it to the manufacture it will take roughly 2 weeks (in the end) to replace just the short block. Enjoy that loaner its on the manufacturer.

2nd go round.

Me: Car go boom! Again!!!

Service manager: Well take a look. Here's a free loaner while your car is out of commission.

Later on the phone Service manager: you need another new engine (this time long block) at least you got a bit more then 1 year and 25k miles this time. We are pulling it and sending it to the manufacture it will take roughly 2 weeks (in the end) to replace the long block. Enjoy that loaner its on the manufacturer. When we pulled the valve cover and the engine was clean there is no question it is not lubricant related.

I was never asked for proof of anything oil change related either time. As long as the engine was clean under the valve covers oil changes or the oil used was not important what so ever. I was using Pennzoil primarily at that time. On the 2nd engine I had used M1 0w-30 and GC 0w-30 was in the sump when it let go.

They may have initially ruled it was not lubricant related but 2 years after my 2nd engine went the manufacturer changed the viscosity requirements for all vehicles using their 3.5L V6. It went from 30 weights to 40's and even 50 weight as the prefered choices.

And that is how it will go.

 

[NHHEMI]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan


Warranty fear. That would be something someone would USE in an argument AGAINST Amsoil products. It's speculation first and foremost ..and the most obscure event in terms of possibilities.

* * *

Does anyone who uses M1 over the OEM drain recommendation (there's only ONE M1 product that promotes this - the EP line) have or is warned about some warranty fear factor? Not much by my barometer.

..but say "Amsoil", and it's the first thing every critter that comes out of the woodwork says that you should consider when using it as directed.


Gary - I think you are a good guy but you are an Amsoil Koolaide -a- holic!

1 - Warranty concerns with the non certified products from Amsoil most definitely are not speculation. I have given instances where it mattered( personal and work ). This is something that gives Amsoil folks a bad name when they continue to try and push that extended OCI's will be no issue/non certification will be no issue claims to the point of absurdity even when provided with direct proof to the contrary such as the owner's manual pages I attached about the OP's vehicle or the experiences with my Sister's car and GM requiring proof of proper maitenance before replacing her engine. It is not something that will always come into play but it COULD. That is what people are saying whereas the Amsoil folks want you to believe it never will. That is my issue anyway.

2 - Amsoil gets beat up on over extended OCI's and such because like no other company Amsoil pushes extended OCI's and at the same time tells you to ignore your owner's manual limits and requirements. Right or wrong they put it out there as one of their major marketing ploys. While I haven't checked the M1 website recently in the past under their FAQ's they said to stay within mfg recommended intervals while under warranty like most oil companies do.

It comes up with Amsoil because that is their big thing. It also comes up because you always read people posting things like...

"I just bought a new car - can I go a year and 25K on my OCI and protect my factory warranty?"

or

"I just bought a 2010 XXXX and I plan on using Amsoil and going a year annd 20K on my OCI's"

When people see stuff like that some will take the time to inform them it might not be/is not a good idea from a warranty perspective. People then say to use XL within mfg time limits if that is the brand they really want to use until warranty expires and THEN go with the SSO and EOCI's. We saw that play out in this thread. That isn't bashing Amsoil, saying avoid it completely would be.

Amsoil is linked to extended OCI's and warranty issues and always will be because of how they market their products. It is unavoidable.

 

[Cup of Joe]

Exactly.

They did not even worry about how many oil changes had been performed or by whom. The engine was clean so EVERYTHING was covered by the manufacturer. Which oil or oil filter I was using had absolutely no bearing on who was responsible for paying for the repairs.

I would not make a blanket statement that it will happen that way everytime for everyone. But under warranty it has been my experience if the engine is clean and appears to have met its minimum service they perform warranty repairs. After the car has been repaired they will do an evaluation of why there was a failure. In my case some 2 years after the 2nd failure they changed the recommended lubricant weights for that engine in all platforms.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: TaterandNoodles
Exactly.

They did not even worry about how many oil changes had been performed or by whom. The engine was clean so EVERYTHING was covered by the manufacturer. Which oil or oil filter I was using had absolutely no bearing on who was responsible for paying for the repairs.

I would not make a blanket statement that it will happen that way everytime for everyone. But under warranty it has been my experience if the engine is clean and appears to have met its minimum service they perform warranty repairs. After the car has been repaired they will do an evaluation of why there was a failure. In my case some 2 years after the 2nd failure they changed the recommended lubricant weights for that engine in all platforms.


Exactly, glad you aren't making it a blanket statement, because in many instances it went the other way. A Honda customer of mine comes to mind with a warranty issue over a transmission. It was not so nice, and it was a fluid swap with a fluid not endorsed by Honda. It was not pleasant for the customer, nor me the salesman that sold the car. No point in my going on and on. Many are set in their thinking patterns, and feel that a warranty an oil company makes is Gospel, and the oil company has their back. Remember we are dealing with humans and machines, not everything goes as planned or we are lead to believe.

In your case low miles and a clean engine got you off the hook. They might have also had documented proof or other customers with similar issues, which makes things a lot easier.

BTW I won't mention the maker of the ATF in the Honda example I mentioned above, it would only fuel a fire.

 

[Cup of Joe]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint

Remember we are dealing with humans and machines.


And that is the precise problem.

Different car, different repair, same service manager. It was a warranty repair but when my wife got to the cashier window they wanted $400 for the loaner this time. The problem being even if the manufacturer did not pay for the loaner 1 of the dealerships selling points is "loaners for life". Several dealerships in the area use it in their advertising and have for years. Sometimes when you get to that cashier window however they seem to have forgotten all about the program and/or that you purchased the car from their dealership.

 

[daveams]

My friend who was 70 years old showed me this oil a couple years ago. He was a amsoil dealer and taken oil courses at amsoil head-corders. He showed me everything there was to car maintenance that I know today. amsoil is better then any other oil ever produced. I run ever engine I own with amsoil and I have never had any problems they start better, run better, and stay cooler under demanding conditions. I own ford trucks and cars, lawn mowers, weed-wackers, leaf blowers, tractors and heavy equipment I do very little work to them and they run perfect and start first crank no matter how cold it is. I recently bought a old tractor made in 1975 it ran very poor and very hot show-in in my youtube videos but after using amsoil products and cleaners it runs perfect. I will bet all of you out there that amsoil will be worth your money and save you even more money.

(sorry about his spelling)



This was a Canadian Tire Store online review coming from a guy in BC,Canada

TOTAL SATISFACTION!!!

 

[Pablo]

Demarpaint - you make blanket statements...."No salesman will admit knowing of a product failure...." and you throw implications about like confetti.....so yes you are correct, it's human nature to CYA. But you did say I was not being truthful.

I never said I've not "come across one problem" actually I've had two problems. Both involved filters, one was when the EAA air filters first came out. The manufacturer, Wix I believe, slightly overfilled the mold for a planar filter with seal rubber material and the tiniest bit oozed into the pleat area, by maybe 0.010", actually structurally strong and no effect on function, the customer didn't like the look. I returned it using the return form, customer got a new filter without issues, and Amsoil followed up with info on the cause and corrective action. The other was an EaO oil filter, the manufacturer, Wix I believe, somehow had a steel "fiber" protruding into the center core - it was thin, but well attached - customer noticed it and a replacement filter was provided. Didn't get a root cause on this one, but have not seen it happen again.

So you are implying Amsoil ATF causes problems in Hondas?

 

[bmwtechguy]

Taterandnoodles-what car make/engine did you have that failed twice? I am just curious. Sounds like it was somewhat of a known issue and that may be another reason they did not question your oil/filter type or maintenance interval. Obviously, keeping the engine clean is only one aspect of an oil. Viscosity and wear prevention chemistry would be what I would test for in a post-failure UOA, given a visibly clean engine and no known failure due to design or component quality issues.

 

[Cup of Joe]

It was a Hyundai/Kia with the 3.5L V6. It is used in there mid sized SUV's, vans and the premium sedan at that time. Performing UOA's showed nothing out of the ordinary that would be a clear sign of an impending failure. Hyundai/Kia changed the oil recommendation for several engines in that year range including the 2.4L I4 used in the Sonata and Optima.

I purchased a 04 Sonata last year during a desperate bid to get the [censored] out of Atlanta. It ran quiter on 15W-40 and got the same fuel economy as 10w-30.

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
Gary - I think you are a good guy but you are an Amsoil Koolaide -a- holic!

Hardly. It's not a "religion" for me. While I don't lay down a rug and bow to Superior, Wisconsin ... I do, however, practice what I preach.

Let me just leave any and all with this conceptual thought. If you're a jackhorse for doing extended drains while on warranty, you're just as much of one after it expires.

The concept of "feeling better" after your OEM warranty is gone is so "odd" to me.

..but carry on...

 

[NHHEMI]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Quote:
Gary - I think you are a good guy but you are an Amsoil Koolaide -a- holic!

Hardly. It's not a "religion" for me. While I don't lay down a rug and bow to Superior, Wisconsin ... I do, however, practice what I preach.

Let me just leave any and all with this conceptual thought. If you're a jackhorse for doing extended drains while on warranty, you're just as much of one after it expires.

The concept of "feeling better" after your OEM warranty is gone is so "odd" to me.

..but carry on...

You do realize I have never said that the oil is not capable of a year and a high mileage figure right? MY issues are with the technicalities of warranty coverage. It isn't about can the product do it is about about wiill doing it put my warranty at risk. They are 2 different issues.

 

[Gary Allan]

Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Quote:
Gary - I think you are a good guy but you are an Amsoil Koolaide -a- holic!

Hardly. It's not a "religion" for me. While I don't lay down a rug and bow to Superior, Wisconsin ... I do, however, practice what I preach.

Let me just leave any and all with this conceptual thought. If you're a jackhorse for doing extended drains while on warranty, you're just as much of one after it expires.

The concept of "feeling better" after your OEM warranty is gone is so "odd" to me.

..but carry on...

You do realize I have never said that the oil is not capable of a year and a high mileage figure right? MY issues are with the technicalities of warranty coverage. It isn't about can the product do it is about about wiill doing it put my warranty at risk. They are 2 different issues.


Then when you spout the "you'll shoot your eye out, kid" rhetoric ..include that qualifier in every post that you give as advice.

There's a whole crowd of geezers here (they're not much older than I am). They've made a whole lifetime of personal screw ups of their own creation in the learning process. After 50+ years of random or incidental/coincidental "happenings", they're almost at the point of not exiting their front door due to the bird that caught them 32 years ago doing a fly by. NEVER AGAIN!!! is their battle cry ..in some hopeless attempt to prevent future "happenings". They go from the newest happening and apply corrective restrictions on their activities and choices as they move forward.

This is one such thing ..spouted by mostly the same fear factor crowd.

The point is, the risk, if any, has always been the same. They are the ones that have changed.

 

[buster]

I see a challenge ahead facing Amsoil (although I've said that before and they keep growing). Once most oils/OEM's go to 1 year oil change intervals, what incentive will there be to purchase a non API licensed fluid, unless it's something very specific like a racing oils such as Redline? I'll be curious if Amsoil ever jumps on board with the API. Let's face it, there are a lot of people that abide by the OEM/Manaul/API guidelines. XOM and BP both offer 15k mile oils that are fully API licensed.

 

[c3po]

Originally Posted By: Pablo

Demarpaint - you make blanket statements.


I am seeing Statements from Demarpaint based on his experience in doing Consultant Work for Paint Companies and his time in being a Car Salesman.

Quote:
But you did say I was not being truthful.


I did not see any statement where Demarpaint called Pablo a LIAR or said he was being UNTRUTHFUL. He is just stating that Dealers do not keep records of any claims and he is basing that on his experience with Consulting and being a car salesman.

This is not an easy thread for any Amsoil Dealer since tough questions are coming out about Warranty Claims in the event there is a problem with doing Extended Drains with Amsoil.

Quote:

So you are implying Amsoil ATF causes problems in Hondas?


I am sure if Amsoil ATF met the Honda Transmission Fluid Spec that the problem was not with the fluid. I have heard that when you are using Amsoil ATF it is good to get out as much of the old fluid as possible.

Too many times when there is a transmission problem people like to blame the fluid when in reality it could be:

1) Trans Filter is plugged up
2) Low Fluid Level
3) Transmission Overheating

Quite a few people like to drive with the transmission in overdrive, this is o.k. for cruising on the highway. The problem is since the overdrive gear is the weakest gear it is not advised to keep your transmission in overdrive during stop and go driving or if you are going to pass someone, doing this will make the transmission run hotter.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Pablo
Demarpaint - you make blanket statements...."No salesman will admit knowing of a product failure...." and you throw implications about like confetti.....so yes you are correct, it's human nature to CYA. But you did say I was not being truthful.

I never said I've not "come across one problem" actually I've had two problems. Both involved filters, one was when the EAA air filters first came out. The manufacturer, Wix I believe, slightly overfilled the mold for a planar filter with seal rubber material and the tiniest bit oozed into the pleat area, by maybe 0.010", actually structurally strong and no effect on function, the customer didn't like the look. I returned it using the return form, customer got a new filter without issues, and Amsoil followed up with info on the cause and corrective action. The other was an EaO oil filter, the manufacturer, Wix I believe, somehow had a steel "fiber" protruding into the center core - it was thin, but well attached - customer noticed it and a replacement filter was provided. Didn't get a root cause on this one, but have not seen it happen again.

So you are implying Amsoil ATF causes problems in Hondas?


I let me rephrase "No salesman speaks about a major failure", small failures and issues that they were successful in resolving they speak about down playing and using it to make another sale. Big companies keep their big problems out of the lime light, ALL COMPANIES. This isn't all about me attacking Amsoil, again I use the stuff. I've been in sales my whole working life, and actually spoke/speak at seminars and trade associations teaching selling techniques. But that doesn't really matter much in this thread.

I said I wouldn't mention the name of the ATF, why start a fire storm here? BTW I never called you a liar, in fact I don't think you over hype Amsoil, nor does Gary. OTOH visit Noria and see some of the claims made there.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: TaterandNoodles
Originally Posted By: demarpaint

Remember we are dealing with humans and machines.


And that is the precise problem.

Different car, different repair, same service manager. It was a warranty repair but when my wife got to the cashier window they wanted $400 for the loaner this time. The problem being even if the manufacturer did not pay for the loaner 1 of the dealerships selling points is "loaners for life". Several dealerships in the area use it in their advertising and have for years. Sometimes when you get to that cashier window however they seem to have forgotten all about the program and/or that you purchased the car from their dealership.


Precise problem, many, you had a discussion over a loaner car. Dealers will try and get away with what ever they can. Humans try and get over on other humans, and machines break. LOL

 

[NHHEMI]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Quote:
Gary - I think you are a good guy but you are an Amsoil Koolaide -a- holic!

Hardly. It's not a "religion" for me. While I don't lay down a rug and bow to Superior, Wisconsin ... I do, however, practice what I preach.

Let me just leave any and all with this conceptual thought. If you're a jackhorse for doing extended drains while on warranty, you're just as much of one after it expires.

The concept of "feeling better" after your OEM warranty is gone is so "odd" to me.

..but carry on...

You do realize I have never said that the oil is not capable of a year and a high mileage figure right? MY issues are with the technicalities of warranty coverage. It isn't about can the product do it is about about wiill doing it put my warranty at risk. They are 2 different issues.


Then when you spout the "you'll shoot your eye out, kid" rhetoric ..include that qualifier in every post that you give as advice.

There's a whole crowd of geezers here (they're not much older than I am). They've made a whole lifetime of personal screw ups of their own creation in the learning process. After 50+ years of random or incidental/coincidental "happenings", they're almost at the point of not exiting their front door due to the bird that caught them 32 years ago doing a fly by. NEVER AGAIN!!! is their battle cry ..in some hopeless attempt to prevent future "happenings". They go from the newest happening and apply corrective restrictions on their activities and choices as they move forward.

This is one such thing ..spouted by mostly the same fear factor crowd.

The point is, the risk, if any, has always been the same. They are the ones that have changed.


I should not have to add any qualifier. My advice and comments do not ever say Amsoil is bad. There are times I recommend it as the #1 option, there are times I don't recommend it at all, and there are times( as in this post )where I will recommend using XL during warranty and then go to SSO after it runs out if Amsoil is the preferred brand. Nothing I have posted here on this site requies me to post a qualifier( even though at times I do say it is very good despite my issues with the company ).

Just because I don't believe it is right for every situation, nor do I believe their marketing material to the letter as some do, and just because I don't think it is the best there is, does not mean I have to add in "but it is good stuff" each time to make you happy. Wow, get over it already. How about you add a qualifier saying I am an Amsoil dealer in all of your posts?