Pennzoil Platinum and Ultra Platinum NOACK values

[Salzamani]

You are way too much worried about your engine and the oil, and at the end of the day, the oil will probably make little difference in remedying your engine's problems if at all. We've now started going in circles.

No, and I don't believe what sciontc_mich claimed at all. In a healthy engine, evaporation only accounts for 30% of oil consumption. In an engine that consumes a lot of oil, it would be much less. See the article linked in this post:

PP 0w20 - SP/GF-6 PDS

Platinum is still maintaining 50% cleaner pistons compared to industry standard (IIIH) test, which is excellent. What's interesting is the 0w20 has a VI of 182. Quite high. I'm curious what gives PP the ability to keep the level of cleanliness they claim. They oversell GTL so much...

bobistheoilguy.com

Yeah I hear ya Gokhan. I think you’re right. I’m getting too obsessed. I’ll just role with what you have been saying and see how it does. I really appreciate what you have sharing your knowledge with me. Thank you!

 

[OilUzer]

COMPLETELY anecdotal, so take this for what it's worth, but when I bought my M5, the valve cover gasket (or gaskets) was weeping on the exhaust ever so slightly, resulting in a periodic whiff of burnt oil. When I got it, the oil used had been BMW-branded 5w-30 (LL-01). Once I switched the car over to M1 0w-40 that leak disappeared and never returned over the 4 years I owned it.

how much of it do you think or guess was due to using a thicker (30 to 40) oil?

 

[OVERKILL]

how much of it do you think or guess was due to using a thicker (30 to 40) oil?

They are VERY close in viscosity, M1 0w-40 is on the thin end of the 40 range, BMW 5w-30 is on the thick end of the 30 range and they both had similar HTHS figures, which I believe was >3.5+ for the BMW product and the Mobil product was 3.6 at the time? Can't recall off-hand.

 

[OilUzer]

In case you're wondering, full-SAPS (sulfated ash, phosphorus, and sulfur) means the maximal content of the additive pack (detergent–dispersant–inhibitor (DDI) pack)—in particular about 50% more detergent than that of typical oil and about 50% more ZDDP. You get potentially longer drains and more wear protection at the expense of potentially compromising the life of the catalytic converter, oxygen sensor, particulate filter, intake valves in GDI engines, etc.

Yes, Castrol 0W-40 A3/B4 is a great full-SAPS oil, similar to Mobil 1 FS 0W-40 A3/B4. However, in your case stick with Mobil 1 FS 0W-40 A3/B4.

Why? First of all Castrol 0W-40 A3/B4 does not contain any Group V polyol ester (POE) as far as I know and will not remove your carbon deposits. Secondly since Mobil 1 FS 0W-40 has POE, it will swell your seals and prevent any leaks. Castrol 0W-40 A3/B4 has PAO, which shrinks seals. Since it doesn't have POE, the net effect could be some seal shrinkage if the other types of seal swellers they added in the formulation are not in sufficient quantity; so, the net effect can be a small amount of seal shrinkage, which may lead to leaks in older cars. I don't know if that will happen for sure, but stick with the POE-containing, seal-swelling Mobil 1 FS 0W-40 to be sure.

Lastly the detergents won't harm seals but they probably won't help remove carbon deposits either. You need a solvent like a highly polar ester—for example a polyol ester (POE).

I know this thread started as Pennzoil Noack ... however, since we are discussing M1 vs. Castrol, I have a question.

if I understand this correctly, sounds like oils with more POE (e.g. M1 0W40) help remove carbon deposits but at the same time they deposit more due to higher amounts of zddp. is the net effect zero (relative to lower zddp/no poe oils)?

Also iirc in another 0W40 related thread or post it was suggested (by edyvw) that Castrol was a better choice for DI engines and avoid M1 0W40 ... Can't recall what the reasoning was. I didn't use @ in front of his name because I don't want to turn this into M1 vs. Castrol especially in a Pennzoil thread. lol

Flip the coin? That's what I recently did. Went to get some 0W40 Euro and they were out of M1 so I got the Castrol. Haven't decided which car it's going into. Just experimenting but I have one GDI car.

 

[Gokhan]

I know this thread started as Pennzoil Noack ... however, since we are discussing M1 vs. Castrol, I have a question.

if I understand this correctly, sounds like oils with more POE (e.g. M1 0W40) help remove carbon deposits but at the same time they deposit more due to higher amounts of zddp. is the net effect zero (relative to lower zddp/no poe oils)?

Also iirc in another 0W40 related thread or post it was suggested (by edyvw) that Castrol was a better choice for DI engines and avoid M1 0W40 ... Can't recall what the reasoning was. I didn't use @ in front of his name because I don't want to turn this into M1 vs. Castrol especially in a Pennzoil thread. lol

Flip the coin? That's what I recently did. Went to get some 0W40 Euro and they were out of M1 so I got the Castrol. Haven't decided which car it's going into. Just experimenting but I have one GDI car.

I don't think ZDDP contributes to the deposits appreciably.

He was probably talking about the sulphated ash (SA). M1 FS 0W-40 has more SA than Castrol 0W-40 A3/B4. Neither is a good choice for a GDI engine, as both are full-SAPS with high SA content. I would go with a mid-SAPS oil such as M1 ESP etc, preferably with VW 504.00 approval, which has an intake-valve deposits (IVD) test.

 

[Gokhan]

Yeah I hear ya Gokhan. I think you’re right. I’m getting too obsessed. I’ll just role with what you have been saying and see how it does. I really appreciate what you have sharing your knowledge with me. Thank you!

When you go to Walmart, try the Mobil 1 FS 0W-40 with the Fram Ultra XG3600 (or a smaller version if you think you don't have sufficient clearance to get it in) and see how it goes.

 

[kschachn]

I don't think ZDDP contributes to the deposits appreciably.

He was probably talking about the sulphated ash (SA). M1 FS 0W-40 has more SA than Castrol 0W-40 A3/B4. Neither is a good choice for a GDI engine, as both are full-SAPS with high SA content. I would go with a mid-SAPS oil such as M1 ESP etc, preferably with VW 504.00 approval, which has an intake-valve deposits (IVD) test.

Where have you seen that? Every paper I’ve ever read shows that ZDDP contributes to deposits. Do you have sources that show it does not?

And to be precise it is not “sulfated ash” in the oil, certain metallic additives produce the ash but the “sulfated” part comes from the ASTM test procedure utilizing sulfuric acid.

 

[Salzamani]

When you go to Walmart, try the Mobil 1 FS 0W-40 with the Fram Ultra XG3600 (or a smaller version if you think you don't have sufficient clearance to get it in) and see how it goes.

Yeah I will do exactly that. Thanks Gokhan!

 

[OilUzer]

I don't think ZDDP contributes to the deposits appreciably.

He was probably talking about the sulphated ash (SA). M1 FS 0W-40 has more SA than Castrol 0W-40 A3/B4. Neither is a good choice for a GDI engine, as both are full-SAPS with high SA content. I would go with a mid-SAPS oil such as M1 ESP etc, preferably with VW 504.00 approval, which has an intake-valve deposits (IVD) test.

Thanks for the info. I think you are correct and he was comparing Sulfated Ash contents ... both of which (M1 vs. Castrol) were relatively low % wise.

I assume you don't fully agree with the SA theory. No?

I was doing some search on the subject and ran into one of your threads from April 2020:

"I will argue that the sulfated ash (SA) level -- that is the metal content of an oil -- does not matter for intake valve deposits (IVD) in gasoline direct-injection engines. The IVD is mostly composed of coked base oil with ash (metal) additives that doesn't evaporate. It also contains some exhaust particulates (from EGR) etc. However, since the primary building block of the IVD is coked base oil, how much would the SA level really make a difference? The base oil makes roughly 80% of the oil, whereas the ash is only about 1%. Therefore, I will argue that since the IVD is mostly coked base oil, the ash level has a small effect. In order to combat the IVD, the following all help: (1) Higher-quality base oils, such as PAO and POE, or the poor-man's higher-quality base oils such Group III+ and GTL. (2) More antioxidant to reduce the oil coking. (3) More or better detergent and dispersant to keep things clean. (4) More POE or AN to increase the solvency of the oil, which could loosen up some of the coked oil. There doesn't seem to be any research on this other than a faulty Lubrizol field study that compared a superior (Euro IV) low-SAPS oil to an inferior (Euro III) full-SAPS oil, which obviously favored the Euro IV oil, regardless of the SAPS. Any thoughts?"

Have your views been changed or refined since then? It was a 5 page thread and I did not read the whole thing.

 

[Gokhan]

Thanks for the info. I think you are correct and he was comparing Sulfated Ash contents ... both of which (M1 vs. Castrol) were relatively low % wise.

I assume you don't fully agree with the SA theory. No?

I was doing some search on the subject and ran into one of your threads from April 2020:

"I will argue that the sulfated ash (SA) level -- that is the metal content of an oil -- does not matter for intake valve deposits (IVD) in gasoline direct-injection engines. The IVD is mostly composed of coked base oil with ash (metal) additives that doesn't evaporate. It also contains some exhaust particulates (from EGR) etc. However, since the primary building block of the IVD is coked base oil, how much would the SA level really make a difference? The base oil makes roughly 80% of the oil, whereas the ash is only about 1%. Therefore, I will argue that since the IVD is mostly coked base oil, the ash level has a small effect. In order to combat the IVD, the following all help: (1) Higher-quality base oils, such as PAO and POE, or the poor-man's higher-quality base oils such Group III+ and GTL. (2) More antioxidant to reduce the oil coking. (3) More or better detergent and dispersant to keep things clean. (4) More POE or AN to increase the solvency of the oil, which could loosen up some of the coked oil. There doesn't seem to be any research on this other than a faulty Lubrizol field study that compared a superior (Euro IV) low-SAPS oil to an inferior (Euro III) full-SAPS oil, which obviously favored the Euro IV oil, regardless of the SAPS. Any thoughts?"

Have your views been changed or refined since then? It was a 5 page thread and I did not read the whole thing.

Did I say that? Perhaps the me last year was right.

However, I should note that the only OEM test for IVD is in VW 504.00, which is a mid-SAPS spec.

Spark-plug deposits are typically entirely ash; as the oil entirely evaporates at the tip of a properly heat-selected spark plug. Now, how much oil is evaporated on an intake valve? This reference mentions 550 °C for the intake-valve temperature. Wikipedia gives a 500–800 °C range for the spark-plug tip temperature.

So, I would say I was probably wrong last year when I made this statement. The temperature range of an intake valve is not much lower than that of a spark-plug tip, and the ash content will probably have a high impact on IVD.

Last but not least, I will repeat the claim I've made for a long time: To lower IVD use the thinnest oil possible. Go with a 0W-20 or 0W-16 when the latter is specified. Why? The thinner the oil, the higher the Noack and faster the evaporation will be, and the oil will evaporate from the valve fast before it cokes and forms deposits. So, higher Noack should lower the IVD. This doesn't mean that you should go with a cheap conventional oil with 15% Noack, as the base-oil quality is also important to reduce oil coking. Simply use a high-quality oil with the lowest viscosity recommended for your car.

 

[DIY4quality]

As far as the oil consumption, your oil consumption is happening by transport (of the oil around the rings), not by evaporation (of the oil in the cylinders). Therefore, you will not see much benefit from going to 10W-30 or a lower-Noack oil...

@Gokhan How to determine if consumption is happening by transport vs. evaporation in this case?

 

[Gokhan]

@Gokhan How to determine if consumption is happening by transport vs. evaporation in this case?

I made that statement according to what is known about the oil-consumption issue in the 2AZ-FE engine, which is reported to be caused by clogged piston-ring oil-return holes, subsequently leading to coked and worn piston rings.

 

[DIY4quality]

I made that statement according to what is known about the oil-consumption issue in the 2AZ-FE engine, which is reported to be caused by clogged piston-ring oil-return holes, subsequently leading to coked and worn piston rings.

Gotcha. I thought (was hoping) there might be some clever way to tell the difference for the general case.

 

[Gokhan]

Gotcha. I thought (was hoping) there might be some clever way to tell the difference for the general case.

You can find out if it's due to evaporation by comparing the oil consumption for a low-Noack oil vs. for a high-Noack oil.

 

[Salzamani]

You can find out if it's due to evaporation by comparing the oil consumption for a low-Noack oil vs. for a high-Noack oil.

UPDATE; well I’ve switched over to Castrol Magnetec 5W-30 because of its Noack rating which was the oil SciontC_Mich recommended on my 2006 Scion tC. I have the 2A-ZFE engine and my oil consumption has been reduced pretty drastically basically 1/2 the oil consumption I use to have.

 

[Gokhan]

UPDATE; well I’ve switched over to Castrol Magnetec 5W-30 because of its Noack rating which was the oil SciontC_Mich recommended on my 2006 Scion tC. I have the 2A-ZFE engine and my oil consumption has been reduced pretty drastically basically 1/2 the oil consumption I use to have.

Castrol Magnatec with its low-end Group III base oil doesn't even have a low Noack. The current formulation is probably at around 12%. He saw an old PDS somewhere that doesn't apply to the current formulation. You need to measure the oil consumption over a full OCI to have a meaningful comparison.

 

[Salzamani]

Castrol Magnatec with its low-end Group III base oil doesn't even have a low Noack. The current formulation is probably at around 12%. He saw an old PDS somewhere that doesn't apply to the current formulation. You need to measure the oil consumption over a full OCI to have a meaningful comparison.

Yeah if there is one thing I know how to do is measure my fuel economy and my oil consumption. I don’t just wing it. Yes it has been a almost a full OCI and yes the consumption is much less dispute the same driving style compared to before. I’m not here to sell a product just sharing what I have experienced.

 

[OilUzer]

Castrol Magnatec with its low-end Group III base oil doesn't even have a low Noack. The current formulation is probably at around 12%. He saw an old PDS somewhere that doesn't apply to the current formulation. You need to measure the oil consumption over a full OCI to have a meaningful comparison.

I just looked and Castrol GTX Magnatec 10W30 Noack is 6.95 according to Castrol website. Which is pretty good for the price.

However, they have removed the Noack number for the 5W30.
iirc, it used to be in 8.9 range. Not sure why they no longer list it. Maybe it went up and no need to advertise a mediocre number.

 

[researcher]

Castrol Magnatec with its low-end Group III base oil doesn't even have a low Noack. The current formulation is probably at around 12%. He saw an old PDS somewhere that doesn't apply to the current formulation. You need to measure the oil consumption over a full OCI to have a meaningful comparison.

Hmm, that's interesting that you say that, since the Castrol Magnatec spec sheet I have indicates that the 5w30 has a NOACK of 8.9%. Yes they have a new formulation but how can anyone especially on BITOG assume any numbers without testing? So just because it's assumed to be 12% doesn't mean it is. Plus I have a 2az-fe 2006 engine, and have tested it out. Anything above a NOACK of 13% is when it "consumes" the oil, more like burns it off. So even at the assumption of your 12% it would be safe for a 2006 2az-fe engine.

The fact that it can also be more than just the NOACK value. Castrol Magnatec and other synthetics have (over time) cleaned up many engines, no surprise here. Plus the 2006 2az-fe engine was before the low-tension piston rings and other associated "upgrades" that began the oil consumption in earnest.

Again, no need to dismiss someone's measurements that clearly showed a benefit to a problem. Just like those people who used to make fun of my observations/measurements in the 90s when Mobil oil clearly gave my vehicle much better fuel economy than Valvoline at the time. Now the API and others measure the "Fuel economy" measurement of oils, imagine that! My measurements were real, I didn't need anyone to verify that. So if this oil is working, as Magnatec has been shown to do lots of things way above its pay grade, then it's working.. is good news allergic to people? come on..

 

[DIY4quality]

Hmm, that's interesting that you say that, since the Castrol Magnatec spec sheet I have indicates that the 5w30 has a NOACK of 8.9%...

@researcher Where are you finding the NOACK for this oil? I just pulled up the latest Product Data sheet on the Castrol website and they don't report it. Neither does PQIA.