Oil sludge

[LarryL]

It appears that a few manufacturers, like VW, Chrysler and Toyota are having oil sludge problems, some much worse than others. And these manufacturers are slow to admit and solve the problems. A neighbor had a problem with his Durango. I taught him how to change the oil, went to the store with him to by ramps, a pan and oil for his first change for his new Durango. He changed the oil every 3k miles and kept not only receipts but a log book. His engine oil pressure went to zero at 38k miles and the Durango got towed in to the dealership. They told him because of the sludge that he failed to maintain his vehicle and that his receipts and log must have been 'faked'. Well, after talking to a lawyer and the factory the dealer recanted their claim and replaced the engine under the warranty. It only took 9 weeks and the dealer said it was the only sludge problem they had ever seen and there were no reports from the factory about such problems either.

Is it now time for everyone to switch to synthetic oil if they buy one of these 'at-risk' vehicles? I know that my neighbor is now using synthetic in all his cars.

 

[unDummy]

All vehicles are at risk.

Am a long time user and believer in synthetics. Seems to help with those engineering problems that MFG's refuse to admit.

oversized oil filters + synthetics + reasonable OCIs =long lasting engines

It is also sad that the same is needed for transmissions and other fluids.
More frequent changes or simple drain/refills of the: PS pump, brake fluid reservoir, front/rearends, transmission, transfer case, radiator...... would all but eliminate numerous other issues with various vehicles.

 

[Nosmo King]

In the case of VW, the cause of the problem was entirely the VW dealers.

The factory specified 5w-40 oil and the dealers ( who of course know far more than the factory) used bulk 10w-30.

Now 10w-30 oil in Dino configuration is only allowed by VW for outside temps of no more than 15° C.

This , plus extended oil change intervals beyond specs, plus the smaller than normal oil sump lead to the sludging problem.
The factory admitted its dealers had screwed up in fall of 2004 and extended warranty on 400,000 vehicles.

 

[wulimaster]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nosmo King:
In the case of VW, the cause of the problem was entirely the VW dealers.

The factory specified 5w-40 oil and the dealers ( who of course know far more than the factory) used bulk 10w-30.

---

According to a local VW dealer that I stopped by last week, all the newer cars spec synthetic only. The dealers probably wern't smart enough to know that 5w40 is a viscosity spread only found in synthetics.

The real question is why are a lot of these cars killing the API dino oil so quickly? I had heard about the Durango engine sludging problems from other forums and I am sure there are many more engines out their with the same design flaws. I say flaws because I don't see it happening to every engine design. It is not the oil but something in common with these sludge makers.

I am currently running the Series 2k and 3k in my vehicles and have been running synthetic since mid 1989. I will probably switch to the 3k for all my needs.

 

[ALJAMES]

Hi LARRYL, What type of oil was your neighbor using in his Durango? Did he really change the oil every 3000 miles? Thanks

 

[Gene K]

LarryL how about listing:

1. 3.7L, 3.9L, 4.7L, 5.2L, 5.9L?
2. Time interval between changes.
3. Oil brand, type, and viscosity.
4. Driving habits.

I personally think there may be some unknown factor in many of these cases as I see many of the "Sludge Motors" which do not have any sludge.

Gene

 

[John_E]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gene K:
... I personally think there may be some unknown factor in many of these cases as I see many of the "Sludge Motors" which do not have any sludge.

---

Gene, do you think the problem could be coking of sludge? Engines which see few, if any, short trips would tend to have less carbon and water buildup in the oil than those which often don't get their oil fully warmed up. I know from my cam seal noise symptoms that the OIL temperature in my Passat 1.8T continues to rise long after the coolant registers 190F. I suspect it takes over 5 miles of near-continuous engine operation to BEGIN to boil the moisture out of the oil. It would be very instructive to do a statistical regression analysis of sludging versus driving style, oil type, oil OCI, and even perhaps oil BRAND, in case some of the additives are contributing to the problem.

 

[John_E]

quote:

---

Originally posted by haley10:
From what I have seen, a majority of these reports seem to come from California and regions in the West.

---

The sludge reports on the VAG 1.8T are "all over the map," so to speak.

 

[tdi jerry]

ENGINE'S TODAY RUN AT HIGHER TEMP'S THAN THEY USE TO . THE ENGINES WORK HARDER THAN THE BIG BLOCKS LIKE I USE TO HAVE 1969 DODGE CHARGER WITH A 440 CU IN ENGINE WITH 375 HORSE POWER. THE OLD ENG TURNED LOWER RPM'S THAN THEY DO TODAY.THE REAR ENDS USE TO BE SOMETHING LIKE A 273/323 OR LIKE THAT.WE HAVE ALL THIS OTHER STUFF ON THE CARS TODAY THAT WE DID NOT HAVE A FEW YEARS AGO. THEIR IS NO ROOM UNDER THE HOOD ON THE NEW CARS.

JERRY

 

[Spector]

The dealer was lieing through his teeth. The sludge issues of the Durango were reported as common many many months ago

Maybe the first this dealer has seen but nationwide it was a problem

 

[haley10]

From what I have seen, a majority of these reports seem to come from California and regions in the West.

 

[TomJones76]

quote:

---

Originally posted by John_E:
Gene, do you think the problem could be coking of sludge? Engines which see few, if any, short trips would tend to have less carbon and water buildup in the oil than those which often don't get their oil fully warmed up. I know from my cam seal noise symptoms that the OIL temperature in my Passat 1.8T continues to rise long after the coolant registers 190F.

---

I wonder if something like Lube Control could slow down the coking in an engine like this.

 

[TC]

"Is it now time for everyone to switch to synthetic oil if they buy one of these "at-risk" vehicles?"

A poster on this board recently found Citgo at a liquidation store for 50 cents/qt. I'd venture that even with such "at risk" vehicles, such an inexpensive lube (assuming the manual doesn't call for synthetic) would do just fine if changed at shortened intervals such as 4,500 miles or whatever. Another thing, supposedly a fraction of 1% of the Toyota "sludge monster" engines are ever affected, yet they're all lumped under the same dark cloud even though >99% of engines should do just fine with standard maintenance.

 

[John_E]

quote:

---

Originally posted by TC:
... Another thing, supposedly a fraction of 1% of the Toyota "sludge monster" engines are ever affected, yet they're all lumped under the same dark cloud even though >99% of engines should do just fine with standard maintenance.

---

Until we know exactly why those 1 percent fail (driving style? brand and weight of oil? manufacturing variations? poor break-in? blowby? I don't know!), one is gambling by putting cheap oil in an engine known for sludge and/or coke.

 

[TC]

"...one is gambling by putting cheap oil in an engine known for sludge and/or coke."

1. If the filler cap allows for routine inspection of the valvetrain area, there's no risk whatsoever, regardless of what oil is used.

2. What is "cheap" oil? I once bought some Chevron Supreme for 59 cents/qt, while the Safeway down the street currently sells Pennzoil for $2.79. Which is the better oil? Oil price has very little to do with quality.

3. If a fraction of 1% of a given engine model has problems -- and that's what I once read regarding the Toyota engines -- then, by definition, you have greater than a 99% chance of not having problems. Not much "gambling" going on here, not that Toyota doesn't deserve flack for allowing this problem to come about.

4. If you put 50 cent Citgo into a suspected "sludger" engine and changed it every 1,000 miles, would you ever have a problem? No way -- I'd bet my mortgage on it. While 1,000 mi intervals are absurd, abbreviated intervals (whatever mileage one feels comfortable with) could sufficiently address deposit formation in the vast majority of problem engines, I would bet. If so, then OCIs could be just as important a factor as oil selection, with even inexpensive lubes doing fine if changed often.

[ December 29, 2004, 07:45 PM: Message edited by: TC ]

 

[LarryL]

ALJAMES Reply With Quote Hi LARRYL, What type of oil was your neighbor using in his Durango? Did he really change the oil every 3000 miles? Thanks

My neighbor used Castrol GTX 5w-30. He not only did change it every 3k miles, if he went on a trip he would change it before he left, and when he came back from a cruise for two weeks he changed it again. So I would say he changed it every 3k miles plus three or four extra times in 38k miles. He also used Purolator oil filters.

When he got his Durango back, we had to go through the engine and tighten hose clamps, repair the wiring harness and top off all the fluids, clean up the grease marks and throw away to parts boxes left in the footwell. He sold his Durango as fast as he could.

Some of the sludge problems have to be lack of maintenance, but not all.

The neighbor bought a new 4Runner with the V8, to replace the Durango and he's happy. And as a side note, he is using Red Line oil and Amsoil SDF filters, and keeps even better records. He does the oil changes at my house and I sign his log book. He is really upset at the Dodge dealer for calling him a liar. In fact, he is going to save his old filters for each change. At least he should not have any problems with the 2UZ-FE engine. I don't think there has been a hint of any kind of problems with this or the similar 1UZ-FE used in the Lexus sedan.

 

[[email protected]]

I just wanted to post and say tha Chrysler is recommending 5w-20 in their 2.7l engines for 2005, versus the 5w-30 all around, but 10w-30 in hot weather past recommendations. Ive heard they are doing this for a bunch of their engines for 2005 and from there on. I guess they are trying to address the sludge problem in their engines, at least!

 

[DreamDealer]

quote:

---

Originally posted by [email protected]:
I just wanted to post and say tha Chrysler is recommending 5w-20 in their 2.7l engines for 2005, versus the 5w-30 all around, but 10w-30 in hot weather past recommendations. Ive heard they are doing this for a bunch of their engines for 2005 and from there on. I guess they are trying to address the sludge problem in their engines, at least!

---

First post!

Is this recommendation for 2005 and onwards models only, or are they recommending 5w-20 for previous models of the 2.7? (I have a 2001)

 

[farrarfan1]

I've got a 2004 Concorde with the 2.7L also. I sent Chrysler an e-mail asking that same question when I learned Chrysler was recomending 5W20 in the 2005 models. They said to use what the owners manual recomends. I also called the service dept at the dealership where I bought the car and got the same response. Apparently Chrysler's not back spec'ing the use of 5W20 like Ford did.At least not yet.

 

[J. Thomas]

A failure rate on these sludge-vintage Toyota's has NEVER been reported. When the sludge hit the fan, so to speak, in 2002, Toyota stated to the media that they had received around 3,000 complaints ----- you know that any corporation is going to minimize the problem when talking to the media! They also said there were about 3.3 million vehicles covered under the policy. Someone with little brain (or perhaps with media savvy) translated this into a 0.1% failure rate. If you read reports across the internet and recognize what a small percentage of the sludged-engines would appear in internet reports it is apparent that the number is larger, but how large, I can't speculate and neither can anyone else unless they are a Toyota honcho (and then the honcho is going to minimize the problem).