Oil drainback/dry startup issues

[Brynjaminjones]

Hi everyone,

This is my first post here but I've been casually browsing for some time.

I have a Jeep Grand Wagoneer with an AMC 360 V8 that intermittently seems to suffer oil drain back issues. Occasionally when starting (1 in 5 starts maybe) it will thump a couple of times before the oil pressure has built up.

I've only been using Wix 51626 filters up to now, but I've heard reports from others that some Wix filters have issues with the ADBV which would seem consistent with what I'm experiencing.


Living in the UK it's somewhat harder for me to find filters. I typically use RockAuto so I'm limited to what they have available.

I've got a few options I'm looking at:

Wix 51626 (currently using with problems)
Fram PH3985
Fram TG3985
Motorcraft FL306
Hastings LF391
AC Delco PF970C
K&N HP-2007

Historically I've avoided orange Fram filters because of the reputation they had, but reading more recently it sounds like they've improved(?).

I've heard lots of people say that Purolator filters give nice, quiet starts, but I can't source those over here. I have read that Motorcraft are made by Purolator - is that correct?

Considering the dry start issues I'm currently experiencing, what filters would you recommend I try?

 

[oldhp]

Throw the FRAM TG3985 on it and give it a try. Do you have Castrol Magnatec oil over there? If so I would also give it a try. What weight oil are you using?

 

[Brynjaminjones]

Thanks, that was one of the filters I was leaning towards. I'm running Valvoline VR-1 20W50 on the recommendation of my engine rebuilder. The dry startups don't seem to be linked to temperature. They can happen randomly any time after it's been sat for ~45+ minutes.

The engine is actually a new rebuild, but it used to occasionally do this previously too. Now the engine is fresh, the noise of a dry start is however much less noticeable.

 

[WyrTwister]

Do you have a mechanical oil pressure guage on the Jeep ?

 

[Brynjaminjones]

I will do tomorrow!
It's going back to the builder for a couple of issues to be sorted and we'll be getting a pressure gauge hooked up too.

I will of course be mentioning the dry startup thing to him, but having experienced this problem in the past I'm really having my doubts about the oil filter and I want to get the next replacement ordered.

 

[bullwinkle]

Why the 20W50? A fresh rebuild should be able to handle a 10W30 easily, especially if diesel 10W30s are available there. Sounds like a silicone ADBV oil filter would be a good move too.

 

[Brynjaminjones]

I have to say, I had had similar thoughts. I'll do some research on a suitable thinner oil, then once I've got a good idea of what the oil pressure is doing I'll perhaps make the change.
With a new rebuild, what kind of oil should I be looking at? I'm guessing I want to keep to regular (non-synth) oil for the time being?

 

[Job]

I would use 5w-30 synthetic and a fresh Fram Ultra, Wix, or other locally supplied fresh filter, Amsoil?. Not good to hear that knock. I had exactly what you describe once on a car when I bought filters from Rock Auto that were new but old. Off the filter went immediately, problem solved. I think you are using too thick oil. I also would avoid the lower Frams as the cost savings isn't worth it for how much more the Ultra gives in construction.

 

[addyguy]

I'm impressed you are willing to afford the fuel for a Grand Wagoneer in the UK. That is a big SUV, even for over here!

 

[nthach]

I'd run a thinner oil, an American V8 doesn't need that thick of an oil. Maybe a 5W-40/5W-30 ACEA A3/B3 oil but those will be synthetic. Now, if you had "solid" lifters, there might be a justification for the VR-1 due to higher zinc content.

Doesn't Castrol or Esso over there have a API SL-rated oil in 10W-30? Seeing the amount of Rover V8s and Jaguar I6s over there, it shouldn't be too hard.

For filters, if that AMC takes a thread that isn't 3/4-16, you might be out of luck. How much is it to get things shipped over or to have a friend bring over a few filters from the US? Can't you find a Mann/Mahle or Crosfeld equivalent?

 

[bullwinkle]

Believe it's 20mmX1.5mm, might be challenging finding a different filter for it. I can't imagine big AMC V8s are very common in the UK, my credit card is feeling your petrol purchase pain!

 

[Brynjaminjones]

Thanks everyone, this has all been really helpful.

The Wagoneer sure can be expensive over here, but it runs on propane which is half the cost. We also have a '74 Ford F100 with a 390 running on straight gas - that thing rarely sees better than 10mpg which really does sting!


The filter is 20x1.5mm, but all of those I listed above are cross referenced. I like to order from RockAuto because, believe it or not, it's usually faster and cheaper than most places in the UK, especially if I want to be picky with brands.

As for oil, strangely 10W-30 doesn't really seem all that available over here, although I'm sure it is if I look hard enough. Nearly all the Rover V8 guys seem to use 20W-50. 10W-40 is the most common oil over here and is what I use in our two Jeeps with the 4.0 l6. Would that be any good in this 360?


I've just done a 200 mile oil change on the Wagoneer. I carried on with the Wix filter and VR-1 20W-50 for now as I wanted the oil changed sooner rather than later. The oil that came out looked pretty great.

 

[Linctex]

Originally Posted by Brynjaminjones
Occasionally when starting (1 in 5 starts maybe) it will thump a couple of times before the oil pressure has built up.


Properly rebuilt engines do NOT "thump" while waiting for oil pressure to build. Period.

 

[Brynjaminjones]

Originally Posted by Linctex


Properly rebuilt engines do NOT "thump" while waiting for oil pressure to build. Period.


Having listened to it from outside the car as I started it earlier, I am now having my doubts as to whether the thump is actually the engine itself. I turned the fuel off and cranked it for a good 10 seconds before actually starting it and it still sounded like it did the thump thing when it first fired, but not from the engine. I'm wondering if it's maybe something like the exhaust bouncing around as the engine first fires, as I think I've also now noticed a similar rattle from under the car as it shuts down as well.

Regardless, all the informtion I'm gathering is helpful for knowing exactly what to run in it in the future!

 

[addyguy]

10W-40 would be perfect for that 360 V-8. When it was built in the 1970's, 10W-40 was the most common grade in the US by far.

If you look at an AMC manual from that period; 20W-50 isn't listed as an option - 20W-40 (an obsolete grade) is the thickest multi-viscosity oil listed.

 

[DoubleWasp]

Guys, please remember that this engine was not built by Chrysler or AMC. This engine was built by by his builder. If his builder says 20-50, then 20-50 is what he should run.

 

[slybunda]

If your in the uk then best place to get filters is eurocarparts. They stock mann filters which are usually made in europe and good quality. I know the original ford fomoco filter made for my fiesta is actually a rebadged mann filter.
Mann is the oem for various european car filters.

 

[Brynjaminjones]

Thanks everyone for the helpful advice.
I thought you might be interested in my progress.

After getting the oil pressure gauge working properly I used the Jeep as normal for a couple of days. I noticed that the engine noise I was hearing coincided with a small delay in oil pressure building at startup.
I removed the Wix 51626 filter that was on there and replaced it with an old Mopar 05012968AA that I've had lying around for ages.

I've been using this filter for several days now and it hasn't made the dry startup noise once in that time, even if I fire it straight up cold. Oil pressure also builds much faster in all situations.

It looks like the Wix 51626 filters I've been using for the last couple of years are suffering with drainback issues.


Unfortunately, the Mopar 05012968AA is no longer available. Do any of you know who made Mopar filters?

 

[DoubleWasp]

Old filter. Don't know offhand.

Being in the UK, I don't know what's available to you.

The Mann W920/47 crosses to that Mopar number.

What other brands can you get over there?

 

[Brynjaminjones]

Thanks, I'll look up that Man filter.

Most filters over here I order from RockAuto, so I will mostly stick to what I can get on there.
All the ones I've found so far I have listed in the first post in this thread.