Natural medicine - Child dies of meningitis

[JennyHemi]

Originally Posted By: Ethan1
Vern was talking about "sovereign citizen" conspiracies a while back. I think this has something to do with it. Don't google it. Your head will hurt.
Originally Posted By: Bandito440
Originally Posted By: Ethan1
Vern was talking about "sovereign citizen" conspiracies a while back. I think this has something to do with it. Don't google it. Your head will hurt.

Yep. They think that birth and marriage certificates are creating some sort of person-corporation-contract with the government. I can't remember the rest of it, and it's better that way. The person-corporation known as Bandito440 marches on, government oppression and all. Summer is here and it was a beautiful sunny day.


Oh FFS - I hate that sovereign citizen stuff. You [general use] live in this country (or Canada), and you enjoy the protections, freedoms and benefits provided. So you're subject to the laws. That's it.

 

[Alfred_B]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Are the parents at fault? That's the subject of a legal battle that has begun in Canada.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/st...death-1.3537887

Originally Posted By: CBC

Audio recordings obtained by CBC News of police interviews with two Alberta parents accused of allowing their toddler to die from meningitis reveal how strongly the couple believed in the power of natural remedies over conventional medicine, even after the boy was flown to a Calgary hospital in grave condition.

David Stephan, 32, and his wife, Collet Stephan, 36, are accused of failing to provide the necessaries of life for their nearly 19-month-old son Ezekiel, who died in March 2012. The charges were laid almost a year later.

Just after 1 a.m. on March 15, 2012, as the toddler lay unconscious at the Alberta Children's Hospital in Calgary, RCMP Cpl. Ryan Bulford conducted separate lengthy interviews with the Stephans, asking both to describe in detail the events leading up to that point.

A jury is now deliberating after a six-week trial in Lethbridge, Alta., about 210 kilometres southeast of Calgary.

With that eight-woman, four-man jury sequestered, CBC News is now allowed to publish the audio of those interviews, which were exhibits at the trial.

Asked by the officer whether he considered himself an expert in naturopathic remedies, Stephan said no.

"Do we have a formal education? No. Are we educated in it? Absolutely," he said. "Has it worked for us in every single scenario in the past before this? Yes."

Ezekiel was regularly given vitamin and mineral supplements, said his father, who is a vice-president of Truehope Nutritional Support Inc., a natural remedies company founded by his father, Anthony Stephan.

"And then when he was sick there, we were giving him, above and beyond that, the olive root extract, which is an antifungal, antiviral, it's a very powerful one," he told Bulford.

The toddler's mother told the officer that Ezekiel, who had been unwell for about 2½ weeks with what she thought was croup, became more lethargic on Sunday, March 11.

The next day she invited Terrie Meynders, who had been her birth attendant — and who is a registered nurse — to the acreage in Cardston County, in the southwestern corner of Alberta, where the Stephans lived with Ezekiel and their other son Ezra, who was four.

Collet Stephan was also 20 weeks pregnant with their third child at the time.

"To her experience, she said he does look like he's showing signs of meningitis," she told Bulford.

In her testimony on March 8, Meynders said she told Ezekiel's mother she should consult a physician.

Meningitis is an inflammation of the membranes surrounding the brain and spinal cord, and can be caused by a fungus, a virus, or by bacteria, which is the more dangerous variety of the disease.

*snip*


Please visit the link for the full article.


Maybe they didn't have health insurance and couldn't afford to take the kid to the doctor.

 

[NJC]

The responses to this story seem more about witch hunting against homeopathy et al - I don't think anyone here really cares that they lost a son. There's lots of parental blame but jail seems excessive.

 

[JennyHemi]

Originally Posted By: Alfred_B


Maybe they didn't have health insurance and couldn't afford to take the kid to the doctor.


1) Canada (where this occurred) has free healthcare, so... not applicable.
2) The child was dying - you get him help and don't worry about the cost. Even in the USA, emergency medical care is never refused if people can't pay.

Originally Posted By: NJC
The responses to this story seem more about witch hunting against homeopathy et al - I don't think anyone here really cares that they lost a son. There's lots of parental blame but jail seems excessive.


I'm not against homeopathic medicine at all, but people, especially parents, have to know the limits of its use. It's not all-encompassing. Humans can, and do, need emergency medical care at times and there's no substitute for it.

I don't think jail is excessive. While this wasn't intentional, it wasn't an accident either. The outcome was foreseeable. It was a criminal act, and should be punished as such.

 

[NJC]

Originally Posted By: JennyHemi

Originally Posted By: NJC
The responses to this story seem more about witch hunting against homeopathy et al - I don't think anyone here really cares that they lost a son. There's lots of parental blame but jail seems excessive.

I'm not against homeopathic medicine at all, but people, especially parents, have to know the limits of its use. It's not all-encompassing. Humans can, and do, need emergency medical care at times and there's no substitute for it.

This is hard to discuss without contravening board rules. But if they're believing in a higher power to save their child, isn't that their free right? It seems that the state is overstepping their boundary here.

 

[Bandito440]

No. The child's right to health and life trumps the parents' right to believe in magic, homeopathy or otherwise.

 

[IndyIan]

Originally Posted By: JennyHemi

I don't think jail is excessive. While this wasn't intentional, it wasn't an accident either. The outcome was foreseeable. It was a criminal act, and should be punished as such.

Is it much different than letting your kid play a contact sport, or downhill mtb race, motocross race? Kids die or more commonly have life altering concussions all the time.
We had a case where a high school girl died playing rugby after getting a concussion in one game and then days later, got hit in another, killing her. At the time, neither her parents or her coach knew much about concussion symptoms and dangers, and let her play.
I agree that it seems extreme that the parents didn't go to hospital sooner, but they may not of really considered that death was even a possibility until it was obvious and too late.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: NJC
This is hard to discuss without contravening board rules. But if they're believing in a higher power to save their child, isn't that their free right? It seems that the state is overstepping their boundary here.

Next time I see someone getting beaten up, I'm going to make sure no one intervenes, because I believe a higher power will help the victim.

If I do that, will you defend me as well?

 

[Smokescreen]

Originally Posted By: Bandito440
No. The child's right to health and life trumps the parents' right to believe in magic, homeopathy or otherwise.


Tell me how a certain religion that prohibits blood transfusions fit into your logic?

 

[Bandito440]

Originally Posted By: Smokescreen
Originally Posted By: Bandito440
No. The child's right to health and life trumps the parents' right to believe in magic, homeopathy or otherwise.
Tell me how a certain religion that prohibits blood transfusions fit into your logic?

Again, I don't want to see a child that's too young to consent die because of magical thinking. If a child needs a blood transfusion to survive, should the parents be allowed to let them die? I don't think so, and the courts agree with me.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: IndyIan
Originally Posted By: JennyHemi

I don't think jail is excessive. While this wasn't intentional, it wasn't an accident either. The outcome was foreseeable. It was a criminal act, and should be punished as such.

Is it much different than letting your kid play a contact sport, or downhill mtb race, motocross race? Kids die or more commonly have life altering concussions all the time.
We had a case where a high school girl died playing rugby after getting a concussion in one game and then days later, got hit in another, killing her. At the time, neither her parents or her coach knew much about concussion symptoms and dangers, and let her play.
I agree that it seems extreme that the parents didn't go to hospital sooner, but they may not of really considered that death was even a possibility until it was obvious and too late.


I think that's where the willfullness comes into play IMHO. With a sport, you are allowing a child to engage in an an activity with a known and acknowledged level of risk. The child of course has a choice as well, they are not required to go out there and get banged up, though how that goes with some parents is another topic.... However there are rules and requirements for safety and generally a requirement for equipment as well, and this is all within the context of known and accepted risk.

In contrast, we have a situation where the health and safety of the child in the presence of illness was solely in the hands of its parents. And their obligation, as parents, were to ensure that the child was given the necessary level of medical care. The child instead saw no level of true medical care and was helpless to do anything about it. This was not engaging in an activity with a known and acknowledged level of risk, this was ignorance and blind faith in the stead of medicine and science and the result was death for that child.

I feel awful for the couple, and I imagine they are in excruciating pain from this series of events. But their decision to adhere to faith and homeopathy when the gravity of the situation obviously demanded real medical care is what resulted in them being convicted. They did not provide the child with the necessary care because they did not seek proper medical attention.

 

[IndyIan]

I wonder if they will appeal?, as its a minimum 18 month sentence.
I guess I agree though, as at some point they should've gone to the hospital long before they did.

 

[Bandito440]

Overkill, I agree.

Sports aren't an ongoing need to seek medical attention. If the kid suffered an injury and was bleeding from the ears, and the parents administered supplements rather than seeking emergency medicine, that would be a better comparison.

 

[JennyHemi]

Originally Posted By: NJC

This is hard to discuss without contravening board rules. But if they're believing in a higher power to save their child, isn't that their free right? It seems that the state is overstepping their boundary here.

The belief is fine, but not when it extends to the physical act of denying their child emergency medical care.
Originally Posted By: Smokescreen

Tell me how a certain religion that prohibits blood transfusions fit into your logic?

When the patient in question is an underage child, and the treatment is absolutely necessary to save a life, hospitals have been known to get court orders to perform the procedure.
Originally Posted By: IndyIan

Is it much different than letting your kid play a contact sport, or downhill mtb race, motocross race? Kids die or more commonly have life altering concussions all the time.
We had a case where a high school girl died playing rugby after getting a concussion in one game and then days later, got hit in another, killing her. At the time, neither her parents or her coach knew much about concussion symptoms and dangers, and let her play.
I agree that it seems extreme that the parents didn't go to hospital sooner, but they may not of really considered that death was even a possibility until it was obvious and too late.

Trickier. Sports have benefits along with the risks. Concussions as you said have fewer symptoms and may not be deadly. The case with this child is that the parents saw the symptoms, recognized them as critical, but still didn't seek qualified medical care. Allowing a child to play a sport doesn't mean that a parent will refuse to treat a serious injury as a result.

It's a bit like saying you're never going to let a child ride a bicycle or drive a car because of the risk that they'll be hurt. That's not what these parents did - their behavior is akin to seeing a child after a bicycle or car accident and THEN doing nothing to get them medical treatment.

P.S. - Or just read everything Bandito said - I agree.

 

[MinamiKotaro]

A child has no agency nor beliefs. When he grows up and has a mind of his own, he can refuse treatment on his own behalf. Until then, no one should have the "right" to tell him he has to die because of someone else's belief system.

 

[threeputtpar]

It's very sad that an innocent was made to suffer a long and painful death this way. This should never happen.

My theory is that the parents, who own a company that hinges on how well their homeopathic products work, viewed the act of taking their sick child to a medical professional over using their own products as something they just couldn't afford to do. It would destroy their company's credibility, and thus their livelihood.

It gives us a glimpse of what type of person would choose monetary success over the life of their own child. It makes my stomach turn.

 

[d00df00d]

That seems a bit unfair. Maybe their position was influenced by businss considerations, but I'm sure their beliefs were sincere.

 

[Rhymingmechanic]

Originally Posted By: threeputtpar
My theory is that the parents, who own a company that hinges on how well their homeopathic products work, viewed the act of taking their sick child to a medical professional over using their own products as something they just couldn't afford to do. It would destroy their company's credibility, and thus their livelihood.


I've been thinking that for five pages now. Only the parents can say whether they were motivated by business or just plain faith in the products, but the results were tragic all around.

 

[threeputtpar]

I believe a similar thing happened in N WI years ago with the same circumstances, so that may have tainted my opinion.

 

[DoubleWasp]

There is no question that government trumps beliefs, and very well should.

Go tell government that you want to perform an honor-killing, human sacrifice, ritual suicide, animal abuse, suicide bombing, etc. under faith and see how that goes for you.

I really don't know what to say here as far as these parents go. I sure won't feel bad for them no matter what they get.