Natural medicine - Child dies of meningitis

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Mistake is a mistake either way... How about not treating an OBVIOUS infected surgical site?? Asked about wound cultures=no, blood cultures=no, prophylactic broad spectrum antibiotic=no, hospitalist Consult=no. Person taken to surgery 4 days later. Doesn't make it. Person was severely septic. Should've not happened. IF ANYTHING... This individual is more culpable than other people who don't do these types of work for a living. Was not like it was not OBVIOUS, or recommendations were not made.
 
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"Hey, what's the harm in letting people use whatever treatments they want?"

This. This is the harm.

Here is an article that details the events, and includes the physician's report. It's heartbreaking. Read it.

These parents did not make a mistake. Having to give the child water with an eyedropper just to keep him hydrated was not a mistake. Observing their child become so stiff that his back was arched and transporting him to a homeopath on a mattress because he couldn't be forced into a carseat was not a mistake. That's reckless disregard and willful neglect.

Read the physician's report.

It should also be noted that the parents own a company which markets "natural cures".
 
Neglect... Yeah I agree. Again, I've seen neglect first-hand. Incontrovertible. Try taking a person's personal effects to their loved one knowing it shouldn't have happened.
 
Originally Posted By: javacontour
I'd hope we treat both doctors and these parents in the same fashion.


Well... we do. Obviously. If a doctor refused treatment to a patient with meningitis resulting in that patient's senseless death, are you questioning that the doctor would be punished?
 
So why not hold the parents to the same standard.

I'm not saying we should arrest and imprison doctors. I'm asking that if we don't imprison medical professionals, why would we hold the parents to a different and higher standard?

Originally Posted By: Al
Originally Posted By: javacontour
Do doctors face the same scrutiny if a patient dies? Are they jailed if they make a mistake?

I'd hope we treat both doctors and these parents in the same fashion.

If a doctor is wrong and your loved one dies, do they go to jail?
But if the parent is wrong and the child dies, we want to jail the parents?

Something doesn't add up here.

I think a Dr. making a mistake is far far different than what these parents did. People including Docs make mistakes. No matter how well you do your job you, me, everyone makes mistakes.

Do as you suggest and see how many docs stay practising medicine and see how much is will cost.

That is just plain silly.
 
I'd say beware the slippery slope. If family services can take your children because they disagree with you on healthcare, how long until they can take your children because they disagree with you politically, religiously, or other such reasons?
 
Originally Posted By: javacontour
Do doctors face the same scrutiny if a patient dies? Are they jailed if they make a mistake?

I'd hope we treat both doctors and these parents in the same fashion.

If a doctor is wrong and your loved one dies, do they go to jail?
But if the parent is wrong and the child dies, we want to jail the parents?

Something doesn't add up here.




-------> I actually know the sister of the parents being berated and criticized on here. They live 20 mins from me. This is not an issue of natural medicine, let's keep it real.

These are excellent questions. Interestingly enough I have seen cases where people, a teen was brought into the hospital at the beginning of the first signs of meningitis and still die in 3 days under full care. No charges were laid, did the doctors error, hard to say as they are not held to the same standard. I have also seen cases where meningitis turned out fine untreated, others, treated with after effects. I have also seen people sent home by doctors saying they were fine, yet die 2 days later at home from misdiagnosed meningitis. This is not a simple sickness. We all make errors in judgment, sometimes the unfortunate outcome is death.

Human morals are an interesting study. You got people that are on one hand pro-choice, but won't hesitate to freak out at the death of at 18 month old who died of a sickness that could have been saved. Those that say doctor assisted suicide is OK, but vies for making a teen who has had leukemia 2 times and on her third undergo another punishing round of chemo against her will. I am not surprised by some of the typical computer jockey responses.

Ponder this:

Seeing how doctors have a hard enough time sorting it out, what makes you qualified to know meningitis well enough to distinguish it from a flu or other condition in an infant that can't describe it?

How many of you are actual parents that know what to do in all situations regarding your child's health and well-being?

How many of the little choices you have made turned out to be wrong, but luckily it didn't end very badly...when it could have?


Some stories are well reported so that you can make definitive conclusions. Others not. From the details provided, there is no way you can make an accurate assessment of what happened. Details of no infant respirators in the ambulance or airlift are not even on the radar and there are other omissions. Until you know the full story pull your hands from the keyboard and try reading up on things before snap judgement.

The larger problem is where do all the other parents who also love their kids go from here? Does Billy just have a fever or a bad cough...is he sick enough to take to the doctor. Who else will be charged? Terrible precedents has been set and it isn't good for anyone.

For those that don't see the trend of society placing more power in the state (yes even in USA) to raise our kids for schooling, health care or even playing un-monitored in your own fenced back yard...you, are simply not awake.
 
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Let's look at some thinking here:

There are a large number of participants here who are essentially saying:

Doctor makes a mistake: "That's ok, mistakes happen."

Parents make a mistake: "That's awful, they should be shot"

Ok, maybe not shot, but you get the idea. Grace and forgiveness for the doctors who make mistakes, but punishment for parents who make a mistake.

Or if you want to call it poor judgment, that's fine.

I simply don't think we can say negligence on the part of untrained parents.

Now if the parents were doctors and yet refused to seek medical help for their child....

Originally Posted By: Ethan1
Originally Posted By: javacontour
I'd hope we treat both doctors and these parents in the same fashion.


Well... we do. Obviously. If a doctor refused treatment to a patient with meningitis resulting in that patient's senseless death, are you questioning that the doctor would be punished?
 
Sure, because burying your child isn't punishment enough.

You don't think these parents will be punished by the what if's and second guessing?

Originally Posted By: SeaJay
It is a difficult question.

I lean on the side of at least one of the parents getting at least a few months of jail time.
 
I would think a reasonable parent would've taken the child to the emergency room once they realized he was so stiff he couldn't sit in a car seat. That's a clear sign something is very wrong and whatever treatment is being used isn't working.
Who knows, the child could've died at the hospital too, but thinking symptoms as bad as that could be treated at home with any medication, natural or otherwise, is taking to much of a risk for a reasonable parent IMO.
I'd sentence them to community service speaking to new parents about their experience so its hopefully not repeated.
 
The parents' reckless disregard caused their child to have a slow and miserable death.

Child has difficulty breathing - doctor
Child is unable to swallow water on their own - doctor
Child is stiff and can't be placed into a car seat - emergency room

A combination of these factors - you had better be in an ambulance, or at the very least trying to get to the ER in an awful hurry. Instead, they continued to treat with nonsense until their child was too far gone.

I can't imagine anyone reading the physician's report and not wondering how it got so far along. Details of the final day regarding ambulance equipment and life flight are minor details, because it was the parents' disregard over the prior 18 days that let them to handing their lifeless child over to an ambulance crew.

This wasn't a mistake. If a physician was presented with that child and used some extracts, I would expect them to be held criminally liable as well. Parents don't have a vast medical knowledge, but that's why we rely on medical professionals to resolve serious conditions like these. I hope they see jail time to discourage future nonsense like this.
 
Originally Posted By: javacontour
I'd say beware the slippery slope. If family services can take your children because they disagree with you on healthcare, how long until they can take your children because they disagree with you politically, religiously, or other such reasons?


No disrespect intended, but what makes you think the bureacracy of the state lacks this power now? All it takes is a pretext to exercise it. And it most assuredly does.

Mercifully, most people have no experience with the torment and hardship big brother government can inflict on families. And it doesn't ever see the light of day because the proceedings are cloaked in secrecy by law to "protect" the juvenile.

Secrecy may be well intentioned, but what it really does is protect the sytem from public scrutiny.

For these specific people, however, I would throw themn under the jail. This is completelty beyond the pale, and is textbook big government failure - the more it sticks its nose where it doesn't belong, the less opportunity and resources there are to stick it where it does belong.
 
Originally Posted By: javacontour
Sure, because burying your child isn't punishment enough.

You don't think these parents will be punished by the what if's and second guessing?

Originally Posted By: SeaJay
It is a difficult question.

I lean on the side of at least one of the parents getting at least a few months of jail time.


I agree, and do think these parents will be punished by the what if's and second guessing, and hence the rather light jail time suggestion for a death.
 
I can't believe people are actually taking seriously the idea that doctor error might be morally equivalent to a positive denial of medical care. This is pretty surreal.
 
This might actually be the best solution I've read:

Originally Posted By: IndyIan

I'd sentence them to community service speaking to new parents about their experience so its hopefully not repeated.


Originally Posted By: SeaJay
Originally Posted By: javacontour
Sure, because burying your child isn't punishment enough.

You don't think these parents will be punished by the what if's and second guessing?

Originally Posted By: SeaJay
It is a difficult question.

I lean on the side of at least one of the parents getting at least a few months of jail time.


I agree, and do think these parents will be punished by the what if's and second guessing, and hence the rather light jail time suggestion for a death.
 
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