Navy Seal trial moved to Camp Victory, Iraq

[Cup of Joe]

Originally Posted By: uc50ic4more

It certainly is, but it appears as though someone has thought it time to create a public relations circus that demonstrates how diligently the U.S. is keeping it's force in check to ensure the safety of the Iraqi people and maintain adherence to Geneva Conventions and blah blah blah blah. It's PR move meant to placate, and it comes at the cost of the careers and reputations of two good servicemen (see my post above: appearances must be maintained).


That is incorrect.

Quote:
pure political posturing


Also incorrect.

If I get a chance before Helen has to lock this thread I will explain.

 

[uc50ic4more]

Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Just curious.....in your estimation are we the "good guys" or the "infidel scum"??


I am not Muslim, so I'd not refer to anyone as "infidel scum", as I am technically an infidel, and my status as "scum" is still up in the air.

I consider anyone who acts against oppressive governments, regimes and organizations "good guys".

Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Which label for us would you use?


Who is "us"? The American people, or the American government? I'd only use the word "scum" in any manner to describe the latter. I haven't met all 300 million of the American people... Ted Nugent seems cool. So does Noam Chomsky.

 

[uc50ic4more]

Originally Posted By: TaterandNoodles
Also incorrect.

If I get a chance before Helen has to lock this thread I will explain.


"Incorrect" is tough to back up when you're refuting someone's *opinion*, but any contribution that'd help anyone get better informed is welcome on my interwebs.

If the thread gets locked, there's always the forum set up specifically for R/S/P topics disallowed on BITOG: http://bigthree.proboards.com. I think it'd be *grand* if, when a thread gets shut down, the "offending" party can still get a mod or admin to add in a link to the continuation of the thread, assuming one was set up, over at those forums.

 

[LS2JSTS]

Originally Posted By: uc50ic4more
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Just curious.....in your estimation are we the "good guys" or the "infidel scum"??


I am not Muslim, so I'd not refer to anyone as "infidel scum", as I am technically an infidel, and my status as "scum" is still up in the air.

I consider anyone who acts against oppressive governments, regimes and organizations "good guys".

Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Which label for us would you use?


Who is "us"? The American people, or the American government? I'd only use the word "scum" in any manner to describe the latter. I haven't met all 300 million of the American people... Ted Nugent seems cool. So does Noam Chomsky.



Nugent and Chomsky, I'd like to be a fly on the wall if those two ever got together and discussed things. I have to admit, I'm not a fan of Dr. Chomsky and his socialist views. But anyway, thanks for answering.


BTW....thanks for posting that link, I had no idea that site existed for banned political talk.

 

[DrinkDuff77]

Quote:
Petty Officer 2nd Class Matthew McCabe, of Perrysburg, Ohio, is accused of striking the detainee in the midsection...


Whoa, I grew up in this town. Sad to see it in this context.

 

[Cup of Joe]

Originally Posted By: uc50ic4more

"Incorrect" is tough to back up when you're refuting someone's *opinion*, but any contribution that'd help anyone get better informed is welcome on my interwebs.


What is incorrect is the fact some are painting this as political propoganda or being driven for political reasons at all. There also is no media blitz by the national or international press of any kind. Only a reprint of the original reports on MSNBC. The local NBC affiliate is covering it because these are service members stationed in their coverage area. Since there is no international coverage Iraqi's do not currently know anything about a trail. Once it moves to Camp Victory that may change.

Any statement that this is about PR or putting on airs internationally is simply incorrect.

Quote:
Military officials originally wanted to handle the case through a process known as "nonjudicial punishment," but the SEALs insisted on going to trial in an effort to clear their names and save their careers. If convicted by a six-person military jury, they could face up to a year in jail, a bad conduct discharge or loss of pay.


This started at a lower level either Captains Mast or Admiral Mast. In either of these cases the charges and punishment could be less severe. At Mast there are no attorneys and the only judge and jury is the CO or Admiral that is conducting the Mast.

In this case all 3 members requested a Court Marshall so that a military jury would have to decide. The problem with moving up to a court marshall is the charges and penalties become more severe. Since this is now a court marshall case at least 1 JAG officer will have to prosecute the cases. If kept at the NJP level there is no JAG involvement even if found guilty it remains sealed in their service records. NJP is conducted frequently across all branches of service but are not part of any public records. If it had stayed at this level you would never know anything about it having even happened.

So to recap the SEALs requested a Court Marshall which brought some local media coverage. They are not being scape goats or pawns since they chose the Court Marshall route.

 

[JimPghPA]

This thread should stay open as one of the ways to let people know about the existence of this case.

I did not know about the existence of this case until I read about it on this thread.

 

[Tempest]

Originally Posted By: Win

Prosecuting these servicemen is beyond despicable.

+1

 

[Johnny]

Educate me on these matters. If the Seals had not requested the court marshall, what would have happened to them if a single judge (officer) decided the case and found them guilty?

 

[Tempest]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonjudicial_punishment

 

[Cup of Joe]

Originally Posted By: Johnny
Educate me on these matters. If the Seals had not requested the court marshall, what would have happened to them if a single judge (officer) decided the case and found them guilty?


This basicly sums it up and how they ended up at Court martial:

Quote:
Field Grade (O-4 to O-6) may impose:

Restriction for not more than 60 days
Extra duties for not more than 45 days
Restriction with extra duties for not more than 45 days
Correctional Custody for not more than 30 days (only if accused is in the grades E-3 and below)
Forfeiture of one half of base pay for two months
Reduction by one grade if (E-6 or E-5 US Army) (USMC E-5); or reduction any number of grades (E-1 to E-4 US Army).
Confinement on diminished rations or bread and water for not more than 3 days (USN/USMC E-3 and below only, and only when embarked on a vessel)
Admonition or reprimand, either written or verbal.

If the member considers the punishment to be unjust or to be disproportionate to the misconduct committed, he or she may appeal to higher authority. The appeal authority may set aside the punishment, decrease its severity, or deny the appeal, but may not increase the severity of the punishment. Personnel also are permitted to refuse NJP in favor of a Court Martial; this would be done in cases where they do not feel their Commanding Officer will give them a fair hearing, but this option exposes service members to future public disclosure of military court records. Navy and Marine Corps Personnel assigned to or embarked aboard ship do not have the option of refusing NJP nor can they appeal the decision of the office imposing punishment; they may only appeal the severity of the punishment.



You need to understand also that it can be any combination of the above not simply 1 of these as punishment. In this area 45 days restriction and extra duty plus half a months pay by 2 months and reduction in rank is pretty standard. I've also seen members choose 3 days bread and water in the brig when given the option.

At Mast the CO could choose from a low of verbal reprimand up to ending their careers and processing them out of the service with an "Other Then Honorable discharge". If you notice spending time in Levenworth is not an option. By going to Court Martial they could be sentenced to time here and then receive a dishonorable discharge.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Disciplinary_Barracks

A negative result at Court Martial would also follow them into the civilian sector unlike NJP which would only be in their military records unless they received an OTH discharge. Then it would be noted on their DD 214. Military vets need that 214 when applying for VA benefits and/or applying for a job, particularly a government or government contractor job.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DD_Form_214

 

[Johnny]

Interesting. I hope things work out well for them.

 

[Steve S]

The guys are fighting the wrong enemy!!!

 

[javacontour]

If I understand, the SEALS chose the Courts Martial, and it probably was a good move.

If someone was "out to get" them, or to put on a show, then this is their only recourse to have a jury of their peers rule on the case.

The stakes go up, but so does the burden on the prosecution.

Where is our Prius driving Marine JAG officer when we need him? I'd be interested in what he has to say, if he can speak about this.

 

[ArrestMeRedZ]

Originally Posted By: Johnny
Educate me on these matters. If the Seals had not requested the court marshall, what would have happened to them if a single judge (officer) decided the case and found them guilty?


If the SEALs had not requested the courts marshall, and had accepted the Captains Mast, their careers would have been over regardless of the punishment imposed. If they are courts marshalled, it's also over. Regardless, they will have career opportunities after the Navy that most of us could only dream about.

Don't forget, the Navy SEAL program is arguably the most difficult program to get into and graduate from in our entire military. Navy SEALs are also arguably the most elite group of fighters in the world, and the most motivated. The hardships they endure getting through the SEAL training program are almost unimaginable.

They are among the most devout patriots in the country. They won't accept being judged over a matter like this by some tool of a senior officer that was too stupid to realize the tarbaby he took on. If the Navy doesn't get some sense and drop the courts marshall, their public relations will be set back 100 years.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: ArrestMeRedZ
Don't forget, the Navy SEAL program is arguably the most difficult program to get into and graduate from in our entire military. Navy SEALs are also arguably the most elite group of fighters in the world, and the most motivated. The hardships they endure getting through the SEAL training program are almost unimaginable.

Yes.

Accordingly, they are held to the absolute highest standards of professionalism. Obviously these guys screwed up. If we value the integrity of our special ops community, why would we not want these guys to be accountable?


Originally Posted By: ArrestMeRedZ
They are among the most devout patriots in the country. They won't accept being judged over a matter like this by some tool of a senior officer that was too stupid to realize the tarbaby he took on. If the Navy doesn't get some sense and drop the courts marshall, their public relations will be set back 100 years.

If they really had nothing to lose either way, why would they not just take their licks and move on? Forcing the Navy between a rock and a hard place doesn't sound like the behavior of a patriot to me.

 

[javacontour]

They aren't forcing the Navy to do anything. The Navy is bringing the charges, the SEALS are exercising their rights in accordance to how the system is set up.

They may be guilty, but are presumed innocent until PROVEN guilty.

The Navy has to prove guilt in either venue. Both non-judicial punishment and judicial punishment (the courts martial) require that guilt be proven.

The SEALS are not being unpatriotic by requiring the prosecution prove it's case to a jury of their peers.

I'm not saying they are guilty or innocent. I'm not saying the Navy is on a witch hunt or not.

IF these guys think they are being rail-roaded, then they are being smart by choosing a courts martial.

If they thought they were guilty, there is a lot of risk in choosing a courts martial as the penalties are much greater.

 

[JimPghPA]

Taking them to trial is not convicting them. I does not make any sense to expect the Navy to drop the court marshal. At this point a court martial is the correct way to look into what went on. What would be a crime is convicting them if they do not deserve it. I am not drawing any conclusion in any way, though I am 1000 percent behind any one who serves.

I say let the free press, and free speach shine. And if the general news on TV and the newspapers do not carry articles on this trial, at least we have the free speech of the internet to let the public know that this trial is going on.

 

[Shannow]

I think it's commendable of them that they requested such.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: javacontour
They aren't forcing the Navy to do anything. The Navy is bringing the charges, the SEALS are exercising their rights in accordance to how the system is set up.

They kind of are. They are making the Navy choose between being crucified at home (prosecuting) and being crucified abroad (dropping the charges).

All I'm trying to say is that this is not the behavior of a patriot with nothing to lose. Therefore, either their motives are suspect, or they really do have something to lose (perhaps because they are not guilty).