Natural medicine - Child dies of meningitis

[javacontour]

I can't believe people would let a doctor error off the hook, but want to throw the book at people who obviously had ZERO medical training.

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
I can't believe people are actually taking seriously the idea that doctor error might be morally equivalent to a positive denial of medical care. This is pretty surreal.

 

[JennyHemi]

I don't understand why there's any argument about parents vs. doctors, or the government Big-Brothering on healthcare.

Any doctor would have treated this child immediately. Any reasonable parent, educated or NOT, would have sought treatment. These parents did not.

The fact is that medical care SHOULD have been sought - any adult should have known that. These parents knew it, yet did nothing. That's a crime. And any other minors in that home are similarly at risk and should be protected. That doesn't mean I advocate the government looking over anyone's shoulder, or intruding into anyone's home. I don't.

And no - the child's death is not enough punishment for these parents. By that standard, any negligence that results in a death should just be dismissed. That's not how the criminal justice system works, nor should it. This was not an accidental death. The minute this child became sick, he had NO chance at life. Was it because of his illness? NO. It was because of his parents.

There WAS no healthcare for this child. If you don't think that's a problem, then there's a different discussion to be had.

 

[Vuflanovsky]

I would have no issue having a doctor error being the moral equivalent to denial of medical care depending on the situation. Doctors are not demi-gods that are above the fray of opprobrium. There are a lot of F ups in hospital settings and adopting the idea of "oh well" toward medical staff just facilitates more of the same.

 

[jg1]

Originally Posted By: Smokescreen
Originally Posted By: javacontour
Do doctors face the same scrutiny if a patient dies? Are they jailed if they make a mistake?

I'd hope we treat both doctors and these parents in the same fashion.

If a doctor is wrong and your loved one dies, do they go to jail?
But if the parent is wrong and the child dies, we want to jail the parents?

Something doesn't add up here.




-------> I actually know the sister of the parents being berated and criticized on here. They live 20 mins from me. This is not an issue of natural medicine, let's keep it real.

These are excellent questions. Interestingly enough I have seen cases where people, a teen was brought into the hospital at the beginning of the first signs of meningitis and still die in 3 days under full care. No charges were laid, did the doctors error, hard to say as they are not held to the same standard. I have also seen cases where meningitis turned out fine untreated, others, treated with after effects. I have also seen people sent home by doctors saying they were fine, yet die 2 days later at home from misdiagnosed meningitis. This is not a simple sickness. We all make errors in judgment, sometimes the unfortunate outcome is death.

Human morals are an interesting study. You got people that are on one hand pro-choice, but won't hesitate to freak out at the death of at 18 month old who died of a sickness that could have been saved. Those that say doctor assisted suicide is OK, but vies for making a teen who has had leukemia 2 times and on her third undergo another punishing round of chemo against her will. I am not surprised by some of the typical computer jockey responses.

Ponder this:

Seeing how doctors have a hard enough time sorting it out, what makes you qualified to know meningitis well enough to distinguish it from a flu or other condition in an infant that can't describe it?

How many of you are actual parents that know what to do in all situations regarding your child's health and well-being?

How many of the little choices you have made turned out to be wrong, but luckily it didn't end very badly...when it could have?


Some stories are well reported so that you can make definitive conclusions. Others not. From the details provided, there is no way you can make an accurate assessment of what happened. Details of no infant respirators in the ambulance or airlift are not even on the radar and there are other omissions. Until you know the full story pull your hands from the keyboard and try reading up on things before snap judgement.

The larger problem is where do all the other parents who also love their kids go from here? Does Billy just have a fever or a bad cough...is he sick enough to take to the doctor. Who else will be charged? Terrible precedents has been set and it isn't good for anyone.

For those that don't see the trend of society placing more power in the state (yes even in USA) to raise our kids for schooling, health care or even playing un-monitored in your own fenced back yard...you, are simply not awake.


Enjoyed your post and end question…
These types of things are polarizing issues which often limit thoughtful discussion. I took the time to read the parents account of events. First off I can relate to the aspect of the story of the parents oscillating on going to the ER or nor going. I think most that have raised or are raising children could empathize with this even if the base reasons for the oscillating are different. It appears to me they were willing to use the medical establishment if necessary. What would be deemed as a necessary time happened at a different point in time than it would have for me and what would have been the right time for me would not have been the right time for you etc.
So what impacts the point of time seeking medical establishment is necessary (often time these issues are buried in the subconscious mind)?

• Views on homeopathy and/or medical establishment
• Business based on homeopathy and/or based on the medical establishment
• Experience on homeopathy or medical establishment used in the past
• Expense of homeopathy vs medical treatment (probably not an issue for the parents in this case, but may be for others)
• Failure of one’s own experience with medical establishment and/or medical establishment or know of someone else’s experience
• Susceptibility to advertisement by homeopathy or medical establishment
• Etc etc…
Hard to really know anything from a simple article and would not pass judgement form my seat; outcome is sad.

Take care.

 

[Al]

Originally Posted By: Vuflanovsky
I would have no issue having a doctor error being the moral equivalent to denial of medical care depending on the situation. Doctors are not demi-gods that are above the fray of opprobrium. There are a lot of F ups in hospital settings and adopting the idea of "oh well" toward medical staff just facilitates more of the same.

Your average Doc gets any number of false lawsuits even if he did everything right. So there is a system in place for punishing Docs who (like any of ) Makes a Mistake. Obviously a doc making a mistake has more consequences than a burger flipper who overdoes a burger.

And our laws are set up to punish those who intentionally or with malice break laws that lead to physical,emotional, or financial harm to a person. Thus they are adjudged in "CRIMINAL" court.

Mistakes are rightfully prosecuited of in "CIVIL" courts.

 

[d00df00d]

Okay, let's break this down.


Three things in play here:

1. Doctor error
2. Doctor incompetence
3. Intentionally denying medical care


ALL of those carry different levels of accountability.

1. A good doctor making an honest mistake is covered by malpractice insurance, which ALL doctors have to pay for in case they screw up.
2. A bad doctor can be held personally accountable and can face legal action, as might the facility that employs that doctor.
3. Actively denying medical care is treated worse for reasons that I refuse to believe aren't obvious. Sorry.


So, the idea that any doctor is "let off the hook" is FALSE -- in fact, in the context of this thread, it's pretty much just something one of us made up for some reason -- and comparing medical errors to preventing medical care is like comparing accidentally bumping into a car in a parking lot with blindfolding someone as they're about to drive headlong into a row of parked cars.

 

[javacontour]

But did they deny treatment or simply choose the WRONG treatment.

The parents didn't sit back and do nothing. They would be category 1 or 2 in your list. Error or incompetence.

But those suggesting the parents did nothing didn't read the story.

Am I saying the parents made the right decision? Of course not.

But then doctors don't either. We don't jail doctors for making the wrong choice. But we want to jail the parents?

Still doesn't add up.
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Okay, let's break this down.


Three things in play here:

1. Doctor error
2. Doctor incompetence
3. Intentionally denying medical care


ALL of those carry different levels of accountability.

1. A good doctor making an honest mistake is covered by malpractice insurance, which ALL doctors have to pay for in case they screw up.
2. A bad doctor can be held personally accountable and can face legal action, as might the facility that employs that doctor.
3. Actively denying medical care is treated worse for reasons that I refuse to believe aren't obvious. Sorry.


So, the idea that any doctor is "let off the hook" is FALSE -- in fact, in the context of this thread, it's pretty much just something one of us made up for some reason -- and comparing medical errors to preventing medical care is like comparing accidentally bumping into a car in a parking lot with blindfolding someone as they're about to drive headlong into a row of parked cars.

 

[Vuflanovsky]

Originally Posted By: Al
Originally Posted By: Vuflanovsky
I would have no issue having a doctor error being the moral equivalent to denial of medical care depending on the situation. Doctors are not demi-gods that are above the fray of opprobrium. There are a lot of F ups in hospital settings and adopting the idea of "oh well" toward medical staff just facilitates more of the same.

Your average gets any number of false lawsuits even if he did everything right. So there is a sem in place for punishing Docs who (like any of ) Makes a Mistake. Obviously a doc making a mistake has more consequences than a burger flipper who overdoes a burger.

And our laws are set up to punish those who intentionally or with malice break laws that lead to physical,emotional, or financial harm to a person. Thhtfully are adjudged in "CRIMINAL" court.

Mistakes are rightfully prosecuited of in "CIVIL" courts.


I hear you and don't necessarily disagree. However, I've been close to a couple medical situations in my life that tell me that those situations was generated by ego in one, and considerably lax standards in another. In the second case, it resulted in death.

In good conscience, I can't say that the notions of criminal and civil charges in these instances would have likely been brought...when they probably should have been. On that count, the medical care structure gets a pass and I'm asked to defer to a medical professional whose decisions and standards were the locus of the outcomes. That's troubling to me...and I don't doubt that it's more common than most would like to admit.

 

[Andrew1972]

Hopefully they rot in prison.

Alternative medicine and idiots who believe in prayer only for heal able via medicine death need some time in prison or should lose their children.

 

[JennyHemi]

Originally Posted By: javacontour
But did they deny treatment or simply choose the WRONG treatment.

The parents didn't sit back and do nothing. They would be category 1 or 2 in your list. Error or incompetence.

But those suggesting the parents did nothing didn't read the story.

Am I saying the parents made the right decision? Of course not.

But then doctors don't either. We don't jail doctors for making the wrong choice. But we want to jail the parents?

Still doesn't add up.
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Okay, let's break this down.


Three things in play here:

1. Doctor error
2. Doctor incompetence
3. Intentionally denying medical care


ALL of those carry different levels of accountability.

1. A good doctor making an honest mistake is covered by malpractice insurance, which ALL doctors have to pay for in case they screw up.
2. A bad doctor can be held personally accountable and can face legal action, as might the facility that employs that doctor.
3. Actively denying medical care is treated worse for reasons that I refuse to believe aren't obvious. Sorry.


So, the idea that any doctor is "let off the hook" is FALSE -- in fact, in the context of this thread, it's pretty much just something one of us made up for some reason -- and comparing medical errors to preventing medical care is like comparing accidentally bumping into a car in a parking lot with blindfolding someone as they're about to drive headlong into a row of parked cars.


Not seeking medical care wasn't just "the wrong choice" - it was a willful choice that caused a death. Like driving drunk or shooting a gun in public. Just because the death wasn't intentional doesn't mean it's not criminal.

This was meningitis, not a hang nail. There's no home remedy.

And we DO jail doctors for making the wrong choice when it amounts to negligence... why do you keep saying we don't? And why are these parents even being compared to doctors? It's an unfair comparison. We're not holding these parents to the same educational standards as doctors, nor should we.

 

[UltrafanUK]

Originally Posted By: madRiver
Hopefully they rot in prison.

Alternative medicine and idiots who believe in prayer only for heal able via medicine death need some time in prison or should lose their children.


I agree that if they don't have any other kids to care for, it should be life with no parole.

 

[Bandito440]

Originally Posted By: UltrafanUK
Originally Posted By: madRiver
Hopefully they rot in prison.

Alternative medicine and idiots who believe in prayer only for heal able via medicine death need some time in prison or should lose their children.


I agree that if they don't have any other kids to care for, it should be life with no parole.

Hopefully any kids they do have were placed in a safe home.

By the way, homeopathy is not a treatment for anything other than a bank account with too much money. It's a placebo and the highest form of quackery. In this case, along with criminally negligent parents, the result was a child suffering a lengthy and painful death.

So, the child was denied medical treatment, and the court determined that they were guilty of "failing to provide the necessaries of life". I agree with the verdict.

 

[Al]

Originally Posted By: javacontour

Am I saying the parents made the right decision? Of course not.
But then doctors don't either. We don't jail doctors for making the wrong choice. But we want to jail the parents?
Still doesn't add up.

Originally Posted By: JennyHemi

Not seeking medical care wasn't just "the wrong choice" - it was a willful choice that caused a death. Like driving drunk or shooting a gun in public. Just because the death wasn't intentional doesn't mean it's not criminal.

This was meningitis, not a hang nail. There's no home remedy.

And we DO jail doctors for making the wrong choice when it amounts to negligence... why do you keep saying we don't? And why are these parents even being compared to doctors? It's an unfair comparison. We're not holding these parents to the same educational standards as doctors, nor should we.

Exactly..the two are not remotely the same. A mistake by a Dr. can't be compared to wanton\, child abuse, and manslaughter. (minimum).

 

[Vern_in_IL]

Originally Posted By: Ethan1
Originally Posted By: Vern_in_IL
If they have a license with the STATE(marriage license)

Another way to look as the marriage license contract with the State.

The children primarily belong to the State.


lolwut?


You innocently forfeit your legal and parental rights when you purchase a marriage license.

 

[Al]

Originally Posted By: Vern_in_IL
Originally Posted By: Ethan1
Originally Posted By: Vern_in_IL
If they have a license with the STATE(marriage license)

Another way to look as the marriage license contract with the State.

The children primarily belong to the State.


lolwut?


You innocently forfeit your legal and parental rights when you purchase a marriage license.

As ethan said "lolwhut?"

 

[Ethan1]

Originally Posted By: javacontour
But did they deny treatment or simply choose the WRONG treatment.


1) The kid needed medical treatment.

2) The parents did not seek any medical treatment until the kid was too stiff to sit in a car seat.

What part of this is excusable? If you believe in homeopathy, come out and say it; until then, I don't understand the confusion.

The courts use the standard of a Reasonable Person. What would a Reasonable Person do? Not What Did The Internet Say, not What Did Some Idiot Think. A Reasonable Person takes a sick child to a doctor before the child dies, full stop.

 

[JennyHemi]

Originally Posted By: Al
Originally Posted By: Vern_in_IL
Originally Posted By: Ethan1
Originally Posted By: Vern_in_IL
If they have a license with the STATE(marriage license)

Another way to look as the marriage license contract with the State.

The children primarily belong to the State.


lolwut?


You innocently forfeit your legal and parental rights when you purchase a marriage license.

As ethan said "lolwhut?"


lolwut x 3

I don't understand how the children "belong to the state" because of a marriage license. That makes no sense. But let's throw a monkey wrench in - what if the parents aren't married? Then who do the kids "belong to"?

 

[Ethan1]

Vern was talking about "sovereign citizen" conspiracies a while back. I think this has something to do with it. Don't google it. Your head will hurt.

 

[Bandito440]

Originally Posted By: Ethan1
Vern was talking about "sovereign citizen" conspiracies a while back. I think this has something to do with it. Don't google it. Your head will hurt.

Yep. They think that birth and marriage certificates are creating some sort of person-corporation-contract with the government. I can't remember the rest of it, and it's better that way. The person-corporation known as Bandito440 marches on, government oppression and all. Summer is here and it was a beautiful sunny day.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: CharlieBauer
Seeing the toddler had been unwell for two and a half weeks with the parents incorrectly diagnosing him, there comes a point where an innocent needs to be protected from parental stupidity.

How to do that is not an easy thing. But having to defend your actions in a court of law and suffering some consequences will become a good deterrent.


I think this is the key... Two and a half weeks is a long time.

Our pediatrician didnt recommend coming in or even any intervention unless fevers got beyond some point, or they sustained too long. The intent is to let the body do its thing, and build its immunity... To a point. Of course defining the symptoms and good communication is important to doing this - our pediatrician is just a text away.

So there have been times where we let our toddler have a fever, times where we have given some appropriate OTC medicine to allow a fever to break in order to get more/better sleep, and times when real medicine has had to intervene. Thankfully weve never had to deal with meningitis, and I guess you could innocently ask the question of "how would you know they had it?" for a few days... But 2.5 weeks??!???!?