Motor Oil University by AE Haas
- Thread starter blackdiamond
- Start date
- Status
Originally Posted By: Tegger
Originally Posted By: blackdiamond
My new-to-me 2008 Honda Civic is rated for 5w-20 so it'll be an easy choice to go for synthetic 0w-20 as long as the OLM allows me to go far enough to justify the extra cost compared to a conventional 5w-20.
You'd better call your Honda dealership and make sure your engine will handle 0W-20. Not all Honda engines that are rated for 5W-20 can use 0W-20 without damage. I believe the '08 non-Hybrid Civic cannot use 0W-20 without damage.
Honda has produced what they call a "job aid" that lists the various 5W-20 engines and their compatibility with 0W-20. All dealers were sent this "job aid", whether they bother to use it or not.
If you get "huh?"-type responses from your Service Advisor, ask him to read the Honda Service News article from January 2010 (page 2). If he can't find that issue, have him call Tech Line, or check ISIS.
A 0W-20 oil is superior to the 5W-20 grade and will not damage any engine for which a 5W-20 is specified.
Originally Posted By: blackdiamond
My new-to-me 2008 Honda Civic is rated for 5w-20 so it'll be an easy choice to go for synthetic 0w-20 as long as the OLM allows me to go far enough to justify the extra cost compared to a conventional 5w-20.
You'd better call your Honda dealership and make sure your engine will handle 0W-20. Not all Honda engines that are rated for 5W-20 can use 0W-20 without damage. I believe the '08 non-Hybrid Civic cannot use 0W-20 without damage.
Honda has produced what they call a "job aid" that lists the various 5W-20 engines and their compatibility with 0W-20. All dealers were sent this "job aid", whether they bother to use it or not.
If you get "huh?"-type responses from your Service Advisor, ask him to read the Honda Service News article from January 2010 (page 2). If he can't find that issue, have him call Tech Line, or check ISIS.
A 0W-20 oil is superior to the 5W-20 grade and will not damage any engine for which a 5W-20 is specified.
Right now, I would say M1 0w20 has the best high and low temperature performance of any 0w20. High temperature maybe only matched by Amsoil or Redline, but not cold. XOM claims the HT properties of their 0w20 are on par with the EP line.
http://www.mobil.us/USA-English-LCW/carengineoils.aspx
If I had to guess, I would say the AFE oils have the most PAO along with the EP line.
http://www.mobil.us/USA-English-LCW/carengineoils.aspx
If I had to guess, I would say the AFE oils have the most PAO along with the EP line.
Originally Posted By: Tegger
After the list of engines which can use 5W-20 OR 0W-20, and the list of engines that can use 5W-20 but NOT 0W-20, Toyota gives this warning:
While I can certainly see them not specifying a 20 grade oil for certain engines, I am a little confused as to why they would allow a 5w-20 for a certain engine yet prohibit a 0w-20. This seems like the rehash of the "10w-30 only, no 5w30" business from years ago. At least back then, 5w30s weren't as good as they are now, and one could argue they weren't as good as the 10w30s of the time. 0w-20s tend to have far superior specifications than any 5w-20.
The only engines that this would even begin to make any sense for would be rotaries (i.e. the synthetic exclusion), but Toyota doesn't use rotaries.
After the list of engines which can use 5W-20 OR 0W-20, and the list of engines that can use 5W-20 but NOT 0W-20, Toyota gives this warning:
While I can certainly see them not specifying a 20 grade oil for certain engines, I am a little confused as to why they would allow a 5w-20 for a certain engine yet prohibit a 0w-20. This seems like the rehash of the "10w-30 only, no 5w30" business from years ago. At least back then, 5w30s weren't as good as they are now, and one could argue they weren't as good as the 10w30s of the time. 0w-20s tend to have far superior specifications than any 5w-20.
The only engines that this would even begin to make any sense for would be rotaries (i.e. the synthetic exclusion), but Toyota doesn't use rotaries.
Originally Posted By: dparm
Thin as possible, thick as necessary.
It's why I try to keep my oils right around my minimum required HTHS of 3.5.
Many owners of German cars in particular, take the minimum HTHS viscosity specification way to literally. It is after all the spec' of new virgin oil and not the minimum viscosity requirements of an engine. Built into that 3.5cP virgin viscosity requirement is a huge safety margin which includes oil shear of 15-20% before the oil is condemned.
The following is a UOA of the FF of a BMW:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2505111#Post2505111
If this oil has a HTHSV much more than 3.0cP I'd be surprised but it meets the viscosity requirements of BMW.
If one chose a high quality shear resistent ester based oil which I know dparm likes to do, he can then safely run an oil with virgin HTHSV considerably lower than 3.5cP. A 3.1-3.2cP oil would still be conservative particularly for street use.
But if one truly follows the lubrication tenet, "thin as possible, thick as necessary", one would run the lightest oil that still maintains the the minimum optimum oil pressure that's specified for the engine by the manufacturer. Under extreme high oil temperature conditions like racing, a heavier the 3.5cP oil may be desirable to maintain adequate OP but in most less stressful situations an oil viscosity considerably lighter than 3.5cP would be all that's necessary.
Thin as possible, thick as necessary.
It's why I try to keep my oils right around my minimum required HTHS of 3.5.
Many owners of German cars in particular, take the minimum HTHS viscosity specification way to literally. It is after all the spec' of new virgin oil and not the minimum viscosity requirements of an engine. Built into that 3.5cP virgin viscosity requirement is a huge safety margin which includes oil shear of 15-20% before the oil is condemned.
The following is a UOA of the FF of a BMW:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2505111#Post2505111
If this oil has a HTHSV much more than 3.0cP I'd be surprised but it meets the viscosity requirements of BMW.
If one chose a high quality shear resistent ester based oil which I know dparm likes to do, he can then safely run an oil with virgin HTHSV considerably lower than 3.5cP. A 3.1-3.2cP oil would still be conservative particularly for street use.
But if one truly follows the lubrication tenet, "thin as possible, thick as necessary", one would run the lightest oil that still maintains the the minimum optimum oil pressure that's specified for the engine by the manufacturer. Under extreme high oil temperature conditions like racing, a heavier the 3.5cP oil may be desirable to maintain adequate OP but in most less stressful situations an oil viscosity considerably lighter than 3.5cP would be all that's necessary.
Originally Posted By: Tegger
I don't know the technical reasons either. But Toyota has a similar warning about not using 5W-20 and/or 0W-20 in engines not designed for it. Toyota put their information into a TSB (EG018-06), which I have.
After the list of engines which can use 5W-20 OR 0W-20, and the list of engines that can use 5W-20 but NOT 0W-20, Toyota gives this warning:
Quote:
DO NOT use these oils in engines other than those listed above. These low–viscosity
oils cannot maintain lubrication effectiveness in engines with older designs and could
result in smoke emissions from the tailpipe and/or unusual engine noise.
So it's unwise to use 0W-20 in an engine that does not specifically call for it without checking with the automaker or one of their dealers.
This infamous TSB can be read different ways. My take was some engines in some cars should not use xW20 oils.
Also consider that Toyota uses this language in their manuals since xW20 oils were phased in:
Quote:
An oil with a higher viscosity may be better suited if the vehicle is operated at high speeds, or under extreme load conditions."
I don't know the technical reasons either. But Toyota has a similar warning about not using 5W-20 and/or 0W-20 in engines not designed for it. Toyota put their information into a TSB (EG018-06), which I have.
After the list of engines which can use 5W-20 OR 0W-20, and the list of engines that can use 5W-20 but NOT 0W-20, Toyota gives this warning:
Quote:
DO NOT use these oils in engines other than those listed above. These low–viscosity
oils cannot maintain lubrication effectiveness in engines with older designs and could
result in smoke emissions from the tailpipe and/or unusual engine noise.
So it's unwise to use 0W-20 in an engine that does not specifically call for it without checking with the automaker or one of their dealers.
This infamous TSB can be read different ways. My take was some engines in some cars should not use xW20 oils.
Also consider that Toyota uses this language in their manuals since xW20 oils were phased in:
Quote:
An oil with a higher viscosity may be better suited if the vehicle is operated at high speeds, or under extreme load conditions."
Originally Posted By: buster
Quote:
Are all 0W-20 viscosity oils synthetics?
Yes. The 0W-20 viscosity grade requires synthetic-base oils to meet low-temperature performance standards.
Now is as good as a time as any to bring this up. I just stumbled across it, after one of our friends on the other side of the world mentioned a Mobil 3000 in Australia that was a 5w-40 or some such grade.
Here is Mobil 3000 synthetic 0w-20.
Quote:
Are all 0W-20 viscosity oils synthetics?
Yes. The 0W-20 viscosity grade requires synthetic-base oils to meet low-temperature performance standards.
Now is as good as a time as any to bring this up. I just stumbled across it, after one of our friends on the other side of the world mentioned a Mobil 3000 in Australia that was a 5w-40 or some such grade.
Here is Mobil 3000 synthetic 0w-20.
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: buster
Quote:
Are all 0W-20 viscosity oils synthetics?
Yes. The 0W-20 viscosity grade requires synthetic-base oils to meet low-temperature performance standards.
Now is as good as a time as any to bring this up. I just stumbled across it, after one of our friends on the other side of the world mentioned a Mobil 3000 in Australia that was a 5w-40 or some such grade.
Here is Mobil 3000 synthetic 0w-20.
Looks like Mobil Super 0w20. Identical.
Originally Posted By: buster
Quote:
Are all 0W-20 viscosity oils synthetics?
Yes. The 0W-20 viscosity grade requires synthetic-base oils to meet low-temperature performance standards.
Now is as good as a time as any to bring this up. I just stumbled across it, after one of our friends on the other side of the world mentioned a Mobil 3000 in Australia that was a 5w-40 or some such grade.
Here is Mobil 3000 synthetic 0w-20.
Looks like Mobil Super 0w20. Identical.
That's probably what it is in the States. Here, the Mobil Super has different numbering conventions - 1000 for convention, 2000 for HM semi-syn, and so forth. It appears that 3000 is only available in 0w-20 here, and I've certainly never seen it on the shelf anywhere.
I think I got something backwards in my last post. Here's another attempt.
0w-20 and 5w-20 both meet the same 20 spec at operating temperatures. The difference is that the 0w-20 oil thickens less when not in operation. This means that the range of viscosities that is seen in a 0w-20 oil are a subset of the range of a 5w-20 oil. Every viscosity seen with the 0w-20 oil is also seen with the 5w-20.
I could see that a 20 vs. 30 might be an issue since they are different at operating temperatures.
If Dr. Haas is at all correct, a sythetic 5w-20 and a conventional 5w-20 will have very different viscosities at startup temperatures.
0w-20 and 5w-20 both meet the same 20 spec at operating temperatures. The difference is that the 0w-20 oil thickens less when not in operation. This means that the range of viscosities that is seen in a 0w-20 oil are a subset of the range of a 5w-20 oil. Every viscosity seen with the 0w-20 oil is also seen with the 5w-20.
I could see that a 20 vs. 30 might be an issue since they are different at operating temperatures.
If Dr. Haas is at all correct, a sythetic 5w-20 and a conventional 5w-20 will have very different viscosities at startup temperatures.
Originally Posted By: Ken2
About AE Haas' stuff...he's a cosmetic plastic surgeon. He's a smart guy, but he isn't a tribologist nor a mechanical engineer. Take what he writes with a big grain of salt.
I actually spent some time reading the articles that are posted on his professional website linked on his profile and he is, in fact, more than just a cosmetic surgeon. He also does reconstructive surgery, but that doesn't have anything to do with oil either. The articles, I believe, are written for a local paper column that he has to explain medical things in simple terms. This seems to be something that he enjoys doing since he did basically the same thing with Motor Oil University.
I'm a civil engineer and have a lot of civil, mechanical, and electrical engineer friends. I can promise you that a mechanical engineer isn't any more qualified to know about motor oil than a surgeon. It more about having an interest and taking time to understand the facts.
I'm not saying that AE Haas knows everything there is to know about oil, but what he has written makes far more sense to me than just about anything else that I've ever read relating to motor oil.
About AE Haas' stuff...he's a cosmetic plastic surgeon. He's a smart guy, but he isn't a tribologist nor a mechanical engineer. Take what he writes with a big grain of salt.
I actually spent some time reading the articles that are posted on his professional website linked on his profile and he is, in fact, more than just a cosmetic surgeon. He also does reconstructive surgery, but that doesn't have anything to do with oil either. The articles, I believe, are written for a local paper column that he has to explain medical things in simple terms. This seems to be something that he enjoys doing since he did basically the same thing with Motor Oil University.
I'm a civil engineer and have a lot of civil, mechanical, and electrical engineer friends. I can promise you that a mechanical engineer isn't any more qualified to know about motor oil than a surgeon. It more about having an interest and taking time to understand the facts.
I'm not saying that AE Haas knows everything there is to know about oil, but what he has written makes far more sense to me than just about anything else that I've ever read relating to motor oil.
Originally Posted By: Garak
Now is as good as a time as any to bring this up. I just stumbled across it, after one of our friends on the other side of the world mentioned a Mobil 3000 in Australia that was a 5w-40 or some such grade.
If interested, look up the Mobil south Pacific Lubricants Guide (it's on Mobil.com.au)...it's got what we can get here...
Now is as good as a time as any to bring this up. I just stumbled across it, after one of our friends on the other side of the world mentioned a Mobil 3000 in Australia that was a 5w-40 or some such grade.
If interested, look up the Mobil south Pacific Lubricants Guide (it's on Mobil.com.au)...it's got what we can get here...
Originally Posted By: blackdiamond
If Dr. Haas is at all correct, a sythetic 5w-20 and a conventional 5w-20 will have very different viscosities at startup temperatures.
Well, not vastly different, at least not at the points in which an oil's viscosities are measured to fall into the 5w and 20 points. There are ranges, of course, but if they're API/ILSAC certified, MRV and 100 C, for instance, will fall within those specified SAE ranges.
If the startup temperatures are somewhere in between the marginal and 100 C temperatures, well, we're probably going to see differences if the VI is markedly different.
If Dr. Haas is at all correct, a sythetic 5w-20 and a conventional 5w-20 will have very different viscosities at startup temperatures.
Well, not vastly different, at least not at the points in which an oil's viscosities are measured to fall into the 5w and 20 points. There are ranges, of course, but if they're API/ILSAC certified, MRV and 100 C, for instance, will fall within those specified SAE ranges.
If the startup temperatures are somewhere in between the marginal and 100 C temperatures, well, we're probably going to see differences if the VI is markedly different.
Originally Posted By: blackdiamond
If Dr. Haas is at all correct, a sythetic 5w-20 and a conventional 5w-20 will have very different viscosities at startup temperatures.
Not necessarily so.
The only way to know the actual viscometrics of any oil is to look up the Product Data Sheet info of the oil in question.
There you will find an oil's KV40, KV100, VI, HTHSV, PP, MRV and CCS specifications.
If Dr. Haas is at all correct, a sythetic 5w-20 and a conventional 5w-20 will have very different viscosities at startup temperatures.
Not necessarily so.
The only way to know the actual viscometrics of any oil is to look up the Product Data Sheet info of the oil in question.
There you will find an oil's KV40, KV100, VI, HTHSV, PP, MRV and CCS specifications.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Not necessarily so.
The only way to know the actual viscometrics of any oil is to look up the Product Data Sheet info of the oil in question.
There you will find an oil's KV40, KV100, VI, HTHSV, PP, MRV and CCS specifications.
Looking at Valvoline Conventional, Blend, and Synthetic data sheets the CCS, cP (C) is the following:
5w-20 (-30) 5w30 (-30) 10w30 (-25)
Conventional 6100 6100 5200
Blend 4800 4800 5100
Synthetic 5000 4300 4200
Is a higher or lower number at the same temperature better?
Not necessarily so.
The only way to know the actual viscometrics of any oil is to look up the Product Data Sheet info of the oil in question.
There you will find an oil's KV40, KV100, VI, HTHSV, PP, MRV and CCS specifications.
Looking at Valvoline Conventional, Blend, and Synthetic data sheets the CCS, cP (C) is the following:
5w-20 (-30) 5w30 (-30) 10w30 (-25)
Conventional 6100 6100 5200
Blend 4800 4800 5100
Synthetic 5000 4300 4200
Is a higher or lower number at the same temperature better?
- Status
Similar threads
