Yep, Toyota apparently used a 20 grade in the EPA cycle to gain a higher EPA mileage rating. Therefore, they are required to take measures to ensure that there is a high likelihood that 20 grade oil is used in the vehicle after the sale. Toyota accomplishes this by recommending only 20 grade oils (by name/number) in the manual. And under most operating conditions, the oils will provide good engine life. But they obviously encourage (and perhaps hope) owners will use a higher viscosity oil if certain conditions are encountered. The problem is, Toyota doesn’t define what grade of higher viscosity oils would be acceptable.
More Fuel for the Ever-Raging 20wt Oil Debate
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Originally Posted By: Brian Barnhart
The problem is, Toyota doesn’t define what grade of higher viscosity oils would be acceptable.
IMO it's a bigger problem that they don't more specifically define the conditions under which a higher viscosity oil should be used.
What's high speed in a Camry? 70 mph? 120 mph?
What's high load? It's not a tow vehicle anyway...
The problem is, Toyota doesn’t define what grade of higher viscosity oils would be acceptable.
IMO it's a bigger problem that they don't more specifically define the conditions under which a higher viscosity oil should be used.
What's high speed in a Camry? 70 mph? 120 mph?
What's high load? It's not a tow vehicle anyway...
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bookmaker:
There's been decades of cars using below 30 grade oils. They just didn't come that way out of the bottle ..and the owner/driver never knew it. What manufactures couldn't do was find one that came in the bottle the same way that it operated in the field (for billions of miles in millions of units over multiple decades) .
That was until Ford needed to bring the product to market to use it for certification. Honda and whatnot already had CAFE credits to burn ..but saw the sensibility of its use. Why not add even more value to their cars??
Fuel economy improvements depend on your driving variable. Drive a good % in full warm up ...it's buried by the noise. Driving shorter distances ..it can add up to the perceivable level.
The EPA and the manufacturers agree on that.
There's been decades of cars using below 30 grade oils. They just didn't come that way out of the bottle ..and the owner/driver never knew it. What manufactures couldn't do was find one that came in the bottle the same way that it operated in the field (for billions of miles in millions of units over multiple decades) .
That was until Ford needed to bring the product to market to use it for certification. Honda and whatnot already had CAFE credits to burn ..but saw the sensibility of its use. Why not add even more value to their cars??
Fuel economy improvements depend on your driving variable. Drive a good % in full warm up ...it's buried by the noise. Driving shorter distances ..it can add up to the perceivable level.
The EPA and the manufacturers agree on that.
30 becomes a 20 after shearing anyway.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Fuel economy improvements depend on your driving variable. Drive a good % in full warm up ...it's buried by the noise. Driving shorter distances ..it can add up to the perceivable level.
The EPA and the manufacturers agree on that.
You're probably right. But if I have to pay super-close attention and bust out a log to record any difference, then the mpg returns are probably too small for me to worry about. On top of that:
a) There is enough controversy that using the 20wt causes me doubt. I don't like doubt, especially when it is easily correctable by simply using the 30wt.
b) It is a pain to find 20wt Synpower. It also costs $10 more per OCI when you factor in the $19 walmart jugs for 5w-30, which is not available for 5w-20.
Fuel economy improvements depend on your driving variable. Drive a good % in full warm up ...it's buried by the noise. Driving shorter distances ..it can add up to the perceivable level.
The EPA and the manufacturers agree on that.
You're probably right. But if I have to pay super-close attention and bust out a log to record any difference, then the mpg returns are probably too small for me to worry about. On top of that:
a) There is enough controversy that using the 20wt causes me doubt. I don't like doubt, especially when it is easily correctable by simply using the 30wt.
b) It is a pain to find 20wt Synpower. It also costs $10 more per OCI when you factor in the $19 walmart jugs for 5w-30, which is not available for 5w-20.
Originally Posted By: VeeDubb
There is enough controversy that using the 20wt causes me doubt. I don't like doubt, especially when it is easily correctable by simply using the 30wt.
Even in applications that list Xw-20 as the recommended viscosity, or just when given the option?
There is enough controversy that using the 20wt causes me doubt. I don't like doubt, especially when it is easily correctable by simply using the 30wt.
Even in applications that list Xw-20 as the recommended viscosity, or just when given the option?
I guess I don't trust that CAFE standards aren't trumping longevity, and there is still some controversy out there about this. I really don't know what the facts are here so all I have is doubt.....and given the low benefits of using 20wt in my applicaiton, it doesn't make sense for me to spend time getting those facts, or hunting down and paying extra for 5w-20.
Patman
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Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
There's been decades of cars using below 30 grade oils. They just didn't come that way out of the bottle ..and the owner/driver never knew it. What manufactures couldn't do was find one that came in the bottle the same way that it operated in the field (for billions of miles in millions of units over multiple decades) .
Yep, most 5w30 conventionals thin out to around 9 cst within the first thousand miles or so, so you might as well start out with an oil that is around that viscosity to begin with, that way you get the benefit of having a much thinner cold start viscosity too (a typical 5w20 has a viscosity at 40c of about 45-50cst, compared to 60 or so for 5w30) Plus with a 5w20 you typically get a better base oil, and a lot less viscosity index improvers than 5w30 (so your engine should stay cleaner with a steady diet of 5w20 conventional compared to 5w30 conventional)
There's been decades of cars using below 30 grade oils. They just didn't come that way out of the bottle ..and the owner/driver never knew it. What manufactures couldn't do was find one that came in the bottle the same way that it operated in the field (for billions of miles in millions of units over multiple decades) .
Yep, most 5w30 conventionals thin out to around 9 cst within the first thousand miles or so, so you might as well start out with an oil that is around that viscosity to begin with, that way you get the benefit of having a much thinner cold start viscosity too (a typical 5w20 has a viscosity at 40c of about 45-50cst, compared to 60 or so for 5w30) Plus with a 5w20 you typically get a better base oil, and a lot less viscosity index improvers than 5w30 (so your engine should stay cleaner with a steady diet of 5w20 conventional compared to 5w30 conventional)
Originally Posted By: Patman
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
There's been decades of cars using below 30 grade oils. They just didn't come that way out of the bottle ..and the owner/driver never knew it. What manufactures couldn't do was find one that came in the bottle the same way that it operated in the field (for billions of miles in millions of units over multiple decades) .
Yep, most 5w30 conventionals thin out to around 9 cst within the first thousand miles or so, so you might as well start out with an oil that is around that viscosity to begin with, that way you get the benefit of having a much thinner cold start viscosity too (a typical 5w20 has a viscosity at 40c of about 45-50cst, compared to 60 or so for 5w30) Plus with a 5w20 you typically get a better base oil, and a lot less viscosity index improvers than 5w30 (so your engine should stay cleaner with a steady diet of 5w20 conventional compared to 5w30 conventional)
These are very good arguments. But, to turn the argument around, Why Toyota insists on 5W30 oil in Prius as elkpolk illustrated in his previous thread? Also, why owners of Highlander with 2GR-FE learn that 5W20 is good but 5W30 better for towing?
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
There's been decades of cars using below 30 grade oils. They just didn't come that way out of the bottle ..and the owner/driver never knew it. What manufactures couldn't do was find one that came in the bottle the same way that it operated in the field (for billions of miles in millions of units over multiple decades) .
Yep, most 5w30 conventionals thin out to around 9 cst within the first thousand miles or so, so you might as well start out with an oil that is around that viscosity to begin with, that way you get the benefit of having a much thinner cold start viscosity too (a typical 5w20 has a viscosity at 40c of about 45-50cst, compared to 60 or so for 5w30) Plus with a 5w20 you typically get a better base oil, and a lot less viscosity index improvers than 5w30 (so your engine should stay cleaner with a steady diet of 5w20 conventional compared to 5w30 conventional)
These are very good arguments. But, to turn the argument around, Why Toyota insists on 5W30 oil in Prius as elkpolk illustrated in his previous thread? Also, why owners of Highlander with 2GR-FE learn that 5W20 is good but 5W30 better for towing?
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Quote:
But, to turn the argument around, Why Toyota insists on 5W30 oil in Prius as elkpolk illustrated in his previous thread? Also, why owners of Highlander with 2GR-FE learn that 5W20 is good but 5W30 better for towing?
Why do some Euro's spec 5w-40? Obviously because there's some exceptional reason to do so.
I don't know Toyota ..but is the same engine spec'd for the same oil all across any other chassis that it's put in (if it is put in any other offerings)?
The funky paper that Toyota put out in confusion of what was allowed 5w-20 or 0w-20 was bad enough.
But, to turn the argument around, Why Toyota insists on 5W30 oil in Prius as elkpolk illustrated in his previous thread? Also, why owners of Highlander with 2GR-FE learn that 5W20 is good but 5W30 better for towing?
Why do some Euro's spec 5w-40? Obviously because there's some exceptional reason to do so.
I don't know Toyota ..but is the same engine spec'd for the same oil all across any other chassis that it's put in (if it is put in any other offerings)?
The funky paper that Toyota put out in confusion of what was allowed 5w-20 or 0w-20 was bad enough.
What's the difference between 20 and 30...about 20 degrees f? The 20/30 debate...its' just not a big deal. Patman nailed it, use a 5w-20 is you think the cold start is helpfull....short tripers....etc. To be more specific on another point, if you do choose a 0w/5w-30...be sure it's a good one that has the wear and deposit control of a 5w-20.
There is some speculation on the Prius chat boards about this and it goes like this: Because the Prius's engine stops so often the oil in the heads and upper cylinder walls are subjected to more heat soak than in an ordinary car, and thinner oil, especially non-synthetic 5W20, won't perform as well. Not sure if I buy this line of reasoning, but perhaps that is what Toyota of America was thinking.
It also turns out that the Prius's sold in Japan are allowed to use 0W20 oils based in the Japanese owners manual. Since the Prius's all come out of the same factories it seems more than a bit odd that the Toyota of America won't recommend 0W20 in the USA.
In any case, a fair number of people are running their Prius's with 0W20 and I have some queued up once the Mobil 1 5W30 currently in it is done.
It is also interesting that the dealer fill oil that was in before the Mobil 1 was tested by Blackstone at ~5200 miles and came out squarely in the 20 weight range of 100F cSt of 8.69. I assume the dealer used 5W30 and it sheared down but they may have used 5W20 as rumor is that some Toyota dealers always use that weight.
Rumple
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
It also turns out that the Prius's sold in Japan are allowed to use 0W20 oils based in the Japanese owners manual. Since the Prius's all come out of the same factories it seems more than a bit odd that the Toyota of America won't recommend 0W20 in the USA.
In any case, a fair number of people are running their Prius's with 0W20 and I have some queued up once the Mobil 1 5W30 currently in it is done.
It is also interesting that the dealer fill oil that was in before the Mobil 1 was tested by Blackstone at ~5200 miles and came out squarely in the 20 weight range of 100F cSt of 8.69. I assume the dealer used 5W30 and it sheared down but they may have used 5W20 as rumor is that some Toyota dealers always use that weight.
Rumple
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Patman said:
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Quote:
It also turns out that the Prius's sold in Japan are allowed to use 0W20 oils based in the Japanese owners manual. Since the Prius's all come out of the same factories it seems more than a bit odd that the Toyota of America won't recommend 0W20 in the USA.
This could also be buffering for the highly skilled and anal American public. Toyota knows that Americans will second think them and attempt to over complicate this matter. So they're preemptively doing it for them.
Right. Toyota is probably saying "Hey, they're Americans (group thought cloud forms and horror stories of fine machinery thrown in a meat grinder with McDonald's wrappers littering the interior and whatnot - internals pumping sludge ..and Road Warior driving styles appears before them) ..and they all say "5w-30!!!".
It also turns out that the Prius's sold in Japan are allowed to use 0W20 oils based in the Japanese owners manual. Since the Prius's all come out of the same factories it seems more than a bit odd that the Toyota of America won't recommend 0W20 in the USA.
This could also be buffering for the highly skilled and anal American public. Toyota knows that Americans will second think them and attempt to over complicate this matter. So they're preemptively doing it for them.
Right. Toyota is probably saying "Hey, they're Americans (group thought cloud forms and horror stories of fine machinery thrown in a meat grinder with McDonald's wrappers littering the interior and whatnot - internals pumping sludge ..and Road Warior driving styles appears before them) ..and they all say "5w-30!!!".
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Oil temp is related to load in my experience. Highway is your highest level of combustion input per minute and without some exchanger or cooler, your oil temp is going to show the increased throughput in elevated temp. Your cooling system (typically) won't. Your oil temp isn't typically regulated ..your coolant temp is.
Yeah, I notice that in 4th gear on the freeway, turning about 2500 rpm my F150 4.9L six will end up with a few psi lower oil press than if I run same speed in OD at 2100 rpm. We're talking about 75 mph or so. And once on a trip, I was bucking a headwind and the pressure dropped several pounds from that extra load.
Now no 20 wt oil debate is complete without this quote:
"NEVER use 5W-30 or 5W-20 oil because it is closer to a grinding compound than a lubricant." --Louis LaPointe (paragraph #5)
Oil temp is related to load in my experience. Highway is your highest level of combustion input per minute and without some exchanger or cooler, your oil temp is going to show the increased throughput in elevated temp. Your cooling system (typically) won't. Your oil temp isn't typically regulated ..your coolant temp is.
Yeah, I notice that in 4th gear on the freeway, turning about 2500 rpm my F150 4.9L six will end up with a few psi lower oil press than if I run same speed in OD at 2100 rpm. We're talking about 75 mph or so. And once on a trip, I was bucking a headwind and the pressure dropped several pounds from that extra load.
Now no 20 wt oil debate is complete without this quote:
"NEVER use 5W-30 or 5W-20 oil because it is closer to a grinding compound than a lubricant." --Louis LaPointe (paragraph #5)
I've got a 4.6L mustang GT (2006) and the manual specifies 5W-20. I've just recently switched to a "full" synthetic Mobil 1 5W-20, at 8000 miles.
During the winter here in MT it gets real cold so I'm going to leave the 20W in there. However I change oil again in March, right about the time it warms up. I will take 2-3 trips out to the drag strip next summer in hot weather. Figure 6-7 runs each time with a short cooldown period in between. Would I benefit from using a 30W or should I just stick with the 20?
This whole debate drives me nuts because I've even heard that these new engines with tight clearances might not like the 30W stuff. Yet Saleen and Roush recommend a 30W oil in their superchaged mustangs which use the exact same engine - only with a blower.
During the winter here in MT it gets real cold so I'm going to leave the 20W in there. However I change oil again in March, right about the time it warms up. I will take 2-3 trips out to the drag strip next summer in hot weather. Figure 6-7 runs each time with a short cooldown period in between. Would I benefit from using a 30W or should I just stick with the 20?
This whole debate drives me nuts because I've even heard that these new engines with tight clearances might not like the 30W stuff. Yet Saleen and Roush recommend a 30W oil in their superchaged mustangs which use the exact same engine - only with a blower.
Originally Posted By: Riptide
I've got a 4.6L mustang GT (2006) and the manual specifies 5W-20. I've just recently switched to a "full" synthetic Mobil 1 5W-20, at 8000 miles.
During the winter here in MT it gets real cold so I'm going to leave the 20W in there. However I change oil again in March, right about the time it warms up. I will take 2-3 trips out to the drag strip next summer in hot weather. Figure 6-7 runs each time with a short cooldown period in between. Would I benefit from using a 30W or should I just stick with the 20?
This whole debate drives me nuts because I've even heard that these new engines with tight clearances might not like the 30W stuff. Yet Saleen and Roush recommend a 30W oil in their superchaged mustangs which use the exact same engine - only with a blower.
If there is proper oil pressure with the 20 wt oil for the operating conditions then 20wt is fine .If the oil pressure drops too much then go up on visc. The tighter clearances will allow the 30 wt to flow between the bearings.
I've got a 4.6L mustang GT (2006) and the manual specifies 5W-20. I've just recently switched to a "full" synthetic Mobil 1 5W-20, at 8000 miles.
During the winter here in MT it gets real cold so I'm going to leave the 20W in there. However I change oil again in March, right about the time it warms up. I will take 2-3 trips out to the drag strip next summer in hot weather. Figure 6-7 runs each time with a short cooldown period in between. Would I benefit from using a 30W or should I just stick with the 20?
This whole debate drives me nuts because I've even heard that these new engines with tight clearances might not like the 30W stuff. Yet Saleen and Roush recommend a 30W oil in their superchaged mustangs which use the exact same engine - only with a blower.
If there is proper oil pressure with the 20 wt oil for the operating conditions then 20wt is fine .If the oil pressure drops too much then go up on visc. The tighter clearances will allow the 30 wt to flow between the bearings.
Audi J -
I know what you mean, but I don't know what WT and OT stand for?
I know what you mean, but I don't know what WT and OT stand for?
When I bought my 2001 Honda Odyssey new the cap said 5W-30. The owners manual had 5W-20 with a sticker over it that said 5W-30. Maybe they didn't get final approval from EPA yet? 2002 I saw a question in R&T about the use of 5W-20 and they asked Honda, which was recommending the 5W-20 now. Honda claimed they did extensive testing while towing with 5W-20 in Death Valley, and tore the engines down afterwards and did not measure any wear.
The other thing not mentioned here is that with the thinner oil you get improved flow and thus more cooling from the oil. UOA on this site also shows excellent results with the x-20W. So why do so many on this site dig their heels in?????
The other thing not mentioned here is that with the thinner oil you get improved flow and thus more cooling from the oil. UOA on this site also shows excellent results with the x-20W. So why do so many on this site dig their heels in?????
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Originally Posted By: John K
So why do so many on this site dig their heels in?????
In some cases, it's simple human ego!
IMHO, it's more a case of one size NOT fitting all engines. There's plenty of evidence that good XW-20 oils are fine in many or most modern engines and even some older ones. There's also evidence that some engines, or driving situations dictate another choice, whether that is XW-30 20W-50 or whatever.It's become a circular argument. Or a circle-something!
So why do so many on this site dig their heels in?????
In some cases, it's simple human ego!
IMHO, it's more a case of one size NOT fitting all engines. There's plenty of evidence that good XW-20 oils are fine in many or most modern engines and even some older ones. There's also evidence that some engines, or driving situations dictate another choice, whether that is XW-30 20W-50 or whatever.It's become a circular argument. Or a circle-something!
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