Molybdenum, Cam wear and Hemi tick

[alarmguy]

I dont buy the high Moly oil thing, nor do I buy into RED Line oil is going to prevent that kind of damage..

I vote for high film strength, dont care the brand.
Keep in mind, searching for an oil for this engine to prevent cam wear is looking for a product to help save a defectively produced engine. An oil may help delay but sooner or later a defective cam is going to give in.

I do know one thing, choose a conventional oil and the tick will be gone! Choose a semi and good chance it will be gone too.. One good example would be Valvoline MAXLIFE, it will quiet down many, many engines ..

RATS Papers

 

[Hootbro]

Originally Posted By: alarmguy
I dont buy the high Moly oil thing, nor do I buy into RED Line oil is going to prevent that kind of damage..

I vote for high film strength, dont care the brand.
Keep in mind, searching for an oil for this engine to prevent cam wear is looking for a product to help save a defectively produced engine. An oil may help delay but sooner or later a defective cam is going to give in.

I do know one thing, choose a conventional oil and the tick will be gone! Choose a semi and good chance it will be gone too.. One good example would be Valvoline MAXLIFE, it will quiet down many, many engines ..

RATS Papers


Please, share these examples you have of "high film strength" curing the Hemi tick that did not screw with the MDS vs. a high moly oil examples that Burla has provided.

Ever owned a Hemi? I have and while I do not agree 100% with Burla, they guy is tracking on the subject better than most.

As to discounting the cam issue and stating they would fail regardless is disingenuous to vast majority of cam failures in these engines and the most common denominator is low to no moly oils being used.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Thousands of failures due to lifters ticking?

Since I have been involved with new gen Hemis since August of 2005 when I purchased my first one you'd think we would have heard a bit more about this. I am a moderator on 300C forums across the same time frame and we don't have thousands of failures in Hemis. Period. Very small number of failures. I've seen far more failures of valve seats!

This seems like a classic case of Internet amplification. Even a hundred would be a very small percentage of the millions of Hemis made since 2004.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: alarmguy
I dont buy the high Moly oil thing, nor do I buy into RED Line oil is going to prevent that kind of damage..

I vote for high film strength, dont care the brand.

RATS Papers

It has been shown on here that when those film strength numbers are analyzed correctly (in accordance with the ASTM procedure) there is no statistical difference between any of the oils tested.

In other words all the oils test the same and it is impossible to determine which ones (if any) have a higher film strength than any of the others.

 

[burla]

The ATSM's where created to thoroughly test oils over and above what happens in an engine. All of them are a gauge of viscosity HTHS, NOACK, or CsT. If you want to follow what a rat says about it, good luck to you. His test does nothing to mimick the long term abuse on the oils in a ticking or knocking condition, as stated in this thread. I would soon as take oil info from my grandma and some rat hack.

 

[burla]

Steve I will get the link to the sticky if you like, and on another board Hemi tick comes up weekly. Yes, in general it is a low number as % of hemi's out there, but [censored] dude think about it from the dude that has the tick. Trust me hemi tick is a thing, google it, just look at the youtubes on it. Yes, thousands, it is significant.

 

[burla]

I like the challenge of knowledge to find out what will work, moly versus film, great conversation. The "problem" is redline has both, lol. Maybe it is both? Because one thing is for sure, as of yet only Redline has had the success rate. If you think I like that fact, you know nothing about me. I would love to have other options. Hopefully guys take what we have done, take it further, the manufacturer has been zero help and has done zero to fix this, hemi tick is a decades old thing and seams to be even worse as a % in the gen 4's. "We" really thought PUP 0w40 had a shot, eventhough it was a huge risk running that in an mds engine, Corey did so, and for a while it worked. High moly formula, but less then Redline, and decent film with a 40 weight. Maybe it did shear down in 300 miles? dunno, that one stumped us.

 

[burla]

steve check ur pm?

 

[SatinSilver]

Originally Posted By: burla
steve check ur pm?


Why did you send him a PM when you replied to him on the thread?

 

[burla]

because you can't post a link in the forum and he seams to need verification of the problem at hand

why do you need to know that?

 

[burla]

There needs to be an acceptance of two things, hemi tick is an issue, and lubrication is a possible answer. People are joining this thread that have watched this over 5 years. So they have first hand seen this and many of them lived it, so for lack of better words they are ahead of the 8 ball. Once those items are excepted, we can have a productive conversation. If not, the posts are useless noise. Again, no offense meant. Minimizing hemi tick after seeing the numbers and the damage is to do an injustice to guys searching for answers. Move it along, be of value to the conversation, that is what I ask. We have already had random Bob's guys say their driveline tick was solved with redline, and even one of them with lubeguard's biotech, another formula very similar to redline, high moly and esters. It isn't 100%, but at least it is something guys can try. If you can fix or silent a tick with a different lubricant, why wouldn't you do that?

 

[SatinSilver]

Originally Posted By: burla
because you can't post a link in the forum and he seams to need verification of the problem at hand

why do you need to know that?


Sure you can post links in the forum. Where did you hear otherwise?

I didn't need to know that, I wanted to know.

 

[burla]

ok my bad, apologize.

Here's the link

http://www.ramforumz.com/showthread.php?t=188978&page=39

near 40 pages of Damage from this hemi tick. This is not hemi tick numbers, that number is much larger. Hootbro came here unsolicited, I'm sure he can attest, weekly new cases are discussed, always a new person. I did ask the other guy to post his lineage of testing.
Sometimes daily, it is not uncommon for three days in a row a new person having a new case of hemi tick. I would just like to bring this to the smart guys at bob's, to accept the minimum info and come up with whatever ideas you'll want.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: burla
I would just like to bring this to the smart guys at bob's, to accept the minimum info and come up with whatever ideas you'll want.

And to that end I think you've accomplished your goal.

 

[burla]

Think, if that cam lob turns and hits that roller, and the lifter has resistance as in hemi tick, what happens to that lob which regardless is going to keep spinning? I put one pic, but many other lobs are having weird pitting scars. It just makes the best sense to keep the tick away if you can. Possibly is the damage still happening? Maybe, but also possible if you fix the tick you also fix the damage from continuing? One would have to say at least possible. That is what I'm selling, only a possibly that you can prevent more damage if you happen to be in the 80% that happen to fix their tick with redline. And funny thing, on this very thin theory, many guys have bought into what I'm selling, and indeed have quieted their ticks for better or worse. Yes, I am not the best choice to carry a message, too old and grumpy I guess, but the other guys that have followed this, are true blue. If you have the hemi tick or any other ticking valve train, consider the info in this thread.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: burla
All of them are a gauge of viscosity HTHS, NOACK, or CsT. If you want to follow what a rat says about it, good luck to you. His test does nothing to mimick the long term abuse on the oils in a ticking or knocking condition, as stated in this thread. I would soon as take oil info from my grandma and some rat hack.

At least Red Line, expensive or not, overkill or not, does have some plausible mechanisms for helping matters, if we accept that the Hemi tick is something that can be addressed by lubrication. No one can doubt the AW levels, HTHS, and base stocks.

 

[SonofJoe]

Being unfamiliar with this problem, I've just been looking at videos on YouTube about ticking Hemi engines. I'm guessing this is you???

https://youtu.be/8myOzImm49Q

Anyways, just a thought. Has anyone with this problem had a go at seeing if something like an API SM full Group I 20W50 (but preferably a 20W40) has any impact on the ticking problem? I rather suspect it might. Such an oil would be something of a commercial rarity but I made one once and even though I say it myself, I seem to recall it was pretty good in terms of it's wear performance.

Should it help, the heavy Group I solution might be somewhat cheaper than the Redline route.

 

[burla]

That was me and was a follow up to a video I did earlier for a couple guys, didn't mean it to be so public or I would have done a better job

Whatever gets the job done cheapest I would be in favor of.

Oil base versus additives. does oil film have a shot at keeping an area out of tolerance lubricated better then an additive like zddp or moly, or any other additive? To complicate it further not every tick is the same. Guys with lesser ticks actually have a harder time quieting them then guys with harsher ticks, go figure that 1. As far as going to 50 weight, dunno if the mds will like that. we are in a box with that. I can tell you I had a very raspy banging tick, it was 5w20 that ended it.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: burla
I can tell you I had a very raspy banging tick, it was 5w20 that ended it.


But if it was Redline 5w-20, it is more similar to a 5w-30, keep that in mind, with its HTHS of 3.0cP. You could also look at it as an SAE 20, as its VI of 147 points to it, like their 5w-30, probably not having any VII in it.

 

[burla]

I accept what you are saying, it is possible. Have you seen the white paper on moly like 3 threads down in tech paper section? it is a pretty well done test, shows moly does plate when rubbed, IE maybe a tick condition.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/4467637/gonew/1/Hybrid_tribofilms_(coatings_an#UNREAD

From Link

MoDTC clearly forms friction-reducing tiny pads [35]. They are normally found to form only on asperity tips, where their generation is believed to be stimulated by solid-solid rubbing.

Maybe that is why it seams to take a while for heavy ticks to be silenced, but why they are silenced seemingly better then slighter ticks that may be better served by viscosity instead of additives. just a guess