Molybdenum, Cam wear and Hemi tick
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OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: CC1981
So if Redline 5w30 doesn't have any VII should I not be running this in the winter? My truck does see close to 0*F several times through the winter
it's a 5w-xx oil, it passes the cold temp requirements to carry that designation. It doesn't have VII because it doesn't need it, that won't affect you in the winter, as it will still pump at -35C.
So if Redline 5w30 doesn't have any VII should I not be running this in the winter? My truck does see close to 0*F several times through the winter
it's a 5w-xx oil, it passes the cold temp requirements to carry that designation. It doesn't have VII because it doesn't need it, that won't affect you in the winter, as it will still pump at -35C.
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: burla
I would just like to bring this to the smart guys at bob's, to accept the minimum info and come up with whatever ideas you'll want.
And to that end I think you've accomplished your goal.
I now see what others meant when a certain function of this forum is applied. The quoted comments still show.
Carry on.
Originally Posted By: burla
I would just like to bring this to the smart guys at bob's, to accept the minimum info and come up with whatever ideas you'll want.
And to that end I think you've accomplished your goal.
I now see what others meant when a certain function of this forum is applied. The quoted comments still show.
Carry on.
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: CC1981
So if Redline 5w30 doesn't have any VII should I not be running this in the winter? My truck does see close to 0*F several times through the winter
it's a 5w-xx oil, it passes the cold temp requirements to carry that designation. It doesn't have VII because it doesn't need it, that won't affect you in the winter, as it will still pump at -35C.
Oh well very good then thanks!
Originally Posted By: CC1981
So if Redline 5w30 doesn't have any VII should I not be running this in the winter? My truck does see close to 0*F several times through the winter
it's a 5w-xx oil, it passes the cold temp requirements to carry that designation. It doesn't have VII because it doesn't need it, that won't affect you in the winter, as it will still pump at -35C.
Oh well very good then thanks!
VII usually makes oil perform worse over time not better, if you have two apples to apples 5w30 oils, one with - one without VII. Which is basically like adding a cube of vasoline to your oil, not a solid or a liquid, but it shreaded through the operating of your engine, and the oil ends up close to what it was before it was added. makes you want to go back to the 3k mile interval? Well looky here, some fella dropping in some improver. Run that redline with confidence in the winter, much more confidence then some other folks.
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
..........
Anyways, just a thought. Has anyone with this problem had a go at seeing if something like an API SM full Group I 20W50 (but preferably a 20W40) has any impact on the ticking problem? I rather suspect it might. Such an oil would be something of a commercial rarity but I made one once and even though I say it myself, I seem to recall it was pretty good in terms of it's wear performance.
Should it help, the heavy Group I solution might be somewhat cheaper than the Redline route.
Those heavy grades then mess with the variable valve/cam timing systems and the cylinder deactivation system in those engines. Trading once problem for another.
..........
Anyways, just a thought. Has anyone with this problem had a go at seeing if something like an API SM full Group I 20W50 (but preferably a 20W40) has any impact on the ticking problem? I rather suspect it might. Such an oil would be something of a commercial rarity but I made one once and even though I say it myself, I seem to recall it was pretty good in terms of it's wear performance.
Should it help, the heavy Group I solution might be somewhat cheaper than the Redline route.
Those heavy grades then mess with the variable valve/cam timing systems and the cylinder deactivation system in those engines. Trading once problem for another.
Originally Posted By: burla
VII usually makes oil perform worse over time not better, if you have two apples to apples 5w30 oils, one with - one without VII. Which is basically like adding a cube of vasoline to your oil, not a solid or a liquid, but it shreaded through the operating of your engine, and the oil ends up close to what it was before it was added. makes you want to go back to the 3k mile interval? Well looky here, some fella dropping in some improver. Run that redline with confidence in the winter, much more confidence then some other folks.
I think that's taking too gloomy a position regarding VII polymer. Yes, that's what a bale of VII looks like as pure 100% OCP rubber but your average engine oil will contain less than 1% rubber and at that level, it's fully diluted in the oil. Your beloved soluble Moly additive, in it's pure state, whilst not quite as solid as VII, has at room temperature, the consistency of waxy boot polish and can easily be scraped up on the edge of a knife.
As I've said on this forum several times, the whole VII 'shearability' thing is IMO somewhat overblown. Can you shear VII? Yes but it takes an awful lot of energy and effort to do so. The 'official' KO30 shear test used here in Europe blasts the oil through a fuel injector which will induce part of the polymer to shear but it hardly bears any relation to reality. The bulk of the polymer in a typical VII will quite happily survive the conditions you see in a normal engine. It's only the very longest chain polymers that shear and when they do, the resultant bits still function as VII; just less efficiently so. I ran one of my oils in my car to 15,500 miles once. The oil contained VII. After adjusting for fuel dilution, the viscosity of the oil had hardly budged!
I would also not assume that Redline oils are necessarily VII-free. I could happily agree that their 10W30 might be VII-free but their 5W30? I'd really expect to see some VII there (albeit a lot less than with a conventional 5W30).
VII usually makes oil perform worse over time not better, if you have two apples to apples 5w30 oils, one with - one without VII. Which is basically like adding a cube of vasoline to your oil, not a solid or a liquid, but it shreaded through the operating of your engine, and the oil ends up close to what it was before it was added. makes you want to go back to the 3k mile interval? Well looky here, some fella dropping in some improver. Run that redline with confidence in the winter, much more confidence then some other folks.
I think that's taking too gloomy a position regarding VII polymer. Yes, that's what a bale of VII looks like as pure 100% OCP rubber but your average engine oil will contain less than 1% rubber and at that level, it's fully diluted in the oil. Your beloved soluble Moly additive, in it's pure state, whilst not quite as solid as VII, has at room temperature, the consistency of waxy boot polish and can easily be scraped up on the edge of a knife.
As I've said on this forum several times, the whole VII 'shearability' thing is IMO somewhat overblown. Can you shear VII? Yes but it takes an awful lot of energy and effort to do so. The 'official' KO30 shear test used here in Europe blasts the oil through a fuel injector which will induce part of the polymer to shear but it hardly bears any relation to reality. The bulk of the polymer in a typical VII will quite happily survive the conditions you see in a normal engine. It's only the very longest chain polymers that shear and when they do, the resultant bits still function as VII; just less efficiently so. I ran one of my oils in my car to 15,500 miles once. The oil contained VII. After adjusting for fuel dilution, the viscosity of the oil had hardly budged!
I would also not assume that Redline oils are necessarily VII-free. I could happily agree that their 10W30 might be VII-free but their 5W30? I'd really expect to see some VII there (albeit a lot less than with a conventional 5W30).
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
I would also not assume that Redline oils are necessarily VII-free. I could happily agree that their 10W30 might be VII-free but their 5W30? I'd really expect to see some VII there (albeit a lot less than with a conventional 5W30).
I have certainly heard talk on here of 5W20s and 10W30s without VIIs, but is it really feasible to make a 5W30 without them?
I mean, something that isn't going to cost $50 a quart...
I would also not assume that Redline oils are necessarily VII-free. I could happily agree that their 10W30 might be VII-free but their 5W30? I'd really expect to see some VII there (albeit a lot less than with a conventional 5W30).
I have certainly heard talk on here of 5W20s and 10W30s without VIIs, but is it really feasible to make a 5W30 without them?
I mean, something that isn't going to cost $50 a quart...
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
I would also not assume that Redline oils are necessarily VII-free. I could happily agree that their 10W30 might be VII-free but their 5W30? I'd really expect to see some VII there (albeit a lot less than with a conventional 5W30).
I have certainly heard talk on here of 5W20s and 10W30s without VIIs, but is it really feasible to make a 5W30 without them?
I mean, something that isn't going to cost $50 a quart...
The Viscosity Index (VI) of an oil is, by historical accident, calculated from its viscosities at 40C & 100C. However, for modern day multi-grades, it's sort of more appropriate to think of VI as something that relates to the difference between its very low temperature viscosity (ie its CCS specifically or its W-rating more generally) and its KV at 100C. So VI relates to the 'gap' in the viscosity grade; the bigger the 'gap', the higher the VI of the oil. For example, as you go from 5W20 to 5W30 to 5W40 to 5W50, the VI of the oil will automatically increase. Likewise, if you go the other way, from 15W40 to 10W40 to 5W40 to 0W40, the VI of the oil will automatically increase.
VI-wise, oil's tend to group together in similar bands...
For example, narrow cross-grades such as 10W20, 15W30, 20W40 oils will all have a very low VI. Even with common or garden conventional base oils (which have a VI of roughly 100), you can make these oils with little or no VII polymer. As often as not, these oils are sold as mono-grade oils (ie SAE 20, SAE 30 & SAE 40) and no mention of the W-rating is made, even when it passes the test.
The next tier of oils might be 5W20, 10W30, 15W40 & 20W50. These are oils which, if you blend them 'tight', might have a VI or about 140-ish. With conventional base oils, you're absolutely committed to using VII in these oils. However with the very best base oils (and the right type of DI pack), there's a chance that you can make these oils VII-free, if they're blended 'tight'. However if you blend them 'sloppy', the more chance you'll need to use VII to make the viscometric balance work.
The next band of oils might be 0W20, 5W30, 10W40 & 15W50. Regardless of what base oils you use, the inherent VI of these oils will be so high as to require some VII polymer addition.
Hope that helps...
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
I would also not assume that Redline oils are necessarily VII-free. I could happily agree that their 10W30 might be VII-free but their 5W30? I'd really expect to see some VII there (albeit a lot less than with a conventional 5W30).
I have certainly heard talk on here of 5W20s and 10W30s without VIIs, but is it really feasible to make a 5W30 without them?
I mean, something that isn't going to cost $50 a quart...
The Viscosity Index (VI) of an oil is, by historical accident, calculated from its viscosities at 40C & 100C. However, for modern day multi-grades, it's sort of more appropriate to think of VI as something that relates to the difference between its very low temperature viscosity (ie its CCS specifically or its W-rating more generally) and its KV at 100C. So VI relates to the 'gap' in the viscosity grade; the bigger the 'gap', the higher the VI of the oil. For example, as you go from 5W20 to 5W30 to 5W40 to 5W50, the VI of the oil will automatically increase. Likewise, if you go the other way, from 15W40 to 10W40 to 5W40 to 0W40, the VI of the oil will automatically increase.
VI-wise, oil's tend to group together in similar bands...
For example, narrow cross-grades such as 10W20, 15W30, 20W40 oils will all have a very low VI. Even with common or garden conventional base oils (which have a VI of roughly 100), you can make these oils with little or no VII polymer. As often as not, these oils are sold as mono-grade oils (ie SAE 20, SAE 30 & SAE 40) and no mention of the W-rating is made, even when it passes the test.
The next tier of oils might be 5W20, 10W30, 15W40 & 20W50. These are oils which, if you blend them 'tight', might have a VI or about 140-ish. With conventional base oils, you're absolutely committed to using VII in these oils. However with the very best base oils (and the right type of DI pack), there's a chance that you can make these oils VII-free, if they're blended 'tight'. However if you blend them 'sloppy', the more chance you'll need to use VII to make the viscometric balance work.
The next band of oils might be 0W20, 5W30, 10W40 & 15W50. Regardless of what base oils you use, the inherent VI of these oils will be so high as to require some VII polymer addition.
Hope that helps...
Last edited:
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
I would also not assume that Redline oils are necessarily VII-free. I could happily agree that their 10W30 might be VII-free but their 5W30? I'd really expect to see some VII there (albeit a lot less than with a conventional 5W30).
I believe that came directly from Redline some time back. That's why their 5w-30 has an HTHS of 3.7cP and a VI of 166. Of course that may have changed, as that claim is based on information that was presented many years ago at this point.
Their 5w-20 in comparison, has an HTHS of 3.0 and a VI of 147 (lower than their 10w-30). That would seem to speak more to it having no VII in it IMHO.
I would also not assume that Redline oils are necessarily VII-free. I could happily agree that their 10W30 might be VII-free but their 5W30? I'd really expect to see some VII there (albeit a lot less than with a conventional 5W30).
I believe that came directly from Redline some time back. That's why their 5w-30 has an HTHS of 3.7cP and a VI of 166. Of course that may have changed, as that claim is based on information that was presented many years ago at this point.
Their 5w-20 in comparison, has an HTHS of 3.0 and a VI of 147 (lower than their 10w-30). That would seem to speak more to it having no VII in it IMHO.
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Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
I would also not assume that Redline oils are necessarily VII-free. I could happily agree that their 10W30 might be VII-free but their 5W30? I'd really expect to see some VII there (albeit a lot less than with a conventional 5W30).
I have certainly heard talk on here of 5W20s and 10W30s without VIIs, but is it really feasible to make a 5W30 without them?
I mean, something that isn't going to cost $50 a quart...
Just using Mobil's PAO bases:
SpectraSyn 8 has the following specs:
Visc @ 40C: 48cSt
Visc @ 100C: 8cSt
CCS @ -30C: 4,800cP
MRV @ -40C: 16,200cP
Pour Point: -54F
So it would easily obtain the 5w-xx designation.
SpectraSyn 10 has the following specs:
Visc @ 40C: 66cSt
Visc @ 100C: 10cSt
CCS @ -30C: 8,840cP
MRV @ -40C: 36,650cP
Pour Point: -54F
It would be a tad heavy, straight-up, to pass CCS to meet the 5w-xx designation but easily would pass the 10w-xx one.
I could see mixing them together to possibly do both? But then there's the impact of the add pack, which might screw things up.
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
I would also not assume that Redline oils are necessarily VII-free. I could happily agree that their 10W30 might be VII-free but their 5W30? I'd really expect to see some VII there (albeit a lot less than with a conventional 5W30).
I have certainly heard talk on here of 5W20s and 10W30s without VIIs, but is it really feasible to make a 5W30 without them?
I mean, something that isn't going to cost $50 a quart...
Just using Mobil's PAO bases:
SpectraSyn 8 has the following specs:
Visc @ 40C: 48cSt
Visc @ 100C: 8cSt
CCS @ -30C: 4,800cP
MRV @ -40C: 16,200cP
Pour Point: -54F
So it would easily obtain the 5w-xx designation.
SpectraSyn 10 has the following specs:
Visc @ 40C: 66cSt
Visc @ 100C: 10cSt
CCS @ -30C: 8,840cP
MRV @ -40C: 36,650cP
Pour Point: -54F
It would be a tad heavy, straight-up, to pass CCS to meet the 5w-xx designation but easily would pass the 10w-xx one.
I could see mixing them together to possibly do both? But then there's the impact of the add pack, which might screw things up.
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
As I've said on this forum several times, the whole VII 'shearability' thing is IMO somewhat overblown. Can you shear VII? Yes but it takes an awful lot of energy and effort to do so. The 'official' KO30 shear test used here in Europe blasts the oil through a fuel injector which will induce part of the polymer to shear but it hardly bears any relation to reality. The bulk of the polymer in a typical VII will quite happily survive the conditions you see in a normal engine. It's only the very longest chain polymers that shear and when they do, the resultant bits still function as VII; just less efficiently so. I ran one of my oils in my car to 15,500 miles once. The oil contained VII. After adjusting for fuel dilution, the viscosity of the oil had hardly budged!
Thanks, that is good information. It appears as though no "Blackstone type" UOAs are accurate in terms of fuel dilution nor viscosity, and a lot of "shearing" claims might be incorrect either through fuel dilution or erroneous viscosity measurements. I don't trust either one tbh.
As I've said on this forum several times, the whole VII 'shearability' thing is IMO somewhat overblown. Can you shear VII? Yes but it takes an awful lot of energy and effort to do so. The 'official' KO30 shear test used here in Europe blasts the oil through a fuel injector which will induce part of the polymer to shear but it hardly bears any relation to reality. The bulk of the polymer in a typical VII will quite happily survive the conditions you see in a normal engine. It's only the very longest chain polymers that shear and when they do, the resultant bits still function as VII; just less efficiently so. I ran one of my oils in my car to 15,500 miles once. The oil contained VII. After adjusting for fuel dilution, the viscosity of the oil had hardly budged!
Thanks, that is good information. It appears as though no "Blackstone type" UOAs are accurate in terms of fuel dilution nor viscosity, and a lot of "shearing" claims might be incorrect either through fuel dilution or erroneous viscosity measurements. I don't trust either one tbh.
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
I would also not assume that Redline oils are necessarily VII-free. I could happily agree that their 10W30 might be VII-free but their 5W30? I'd really expect to see some VII there (albeit a lot less than with a conventional 5W30).
I have certainly heard talk on here of 5W20s and 10W30s without VIIs, but is it really feasible to make a 5W30 without them?
I mean, something that isn't going to cost $50 a quart...
Just using Mobil's PAO bases:
SpectraSyn 8 has the following specs:
Visc @ 40C: 48cSt
Visc @ 100C: 8cSt
CCS @ -30C: 4,800cP
MRV @ -40C: 16,200cP
Pour Point: -54F
So it would easily obtain the 5w-xx designation.
SpectraSyn 10 has the following specs:
Visc @ 40C: 66cSt
Visc @ 100C: 10cSt
CCS @ -30C: 8,840cP
MRV @ -40C: 36,650cP
Pour Point: -54F
It would be a tad heavy, straight-up, to pass CCS to meet the 5w-xx designation but easily would pass the 10w-xx one.
I could see mixing them together to possibly do both? But then there's the impact of the add pack, which might screw things up.
Great info, thanks very much!
I didn't realize until now that the SpectraSyns were PAO base stocks.
This is also a good illustration of how pour points don't necessarily have much to do with CCS and MRV results!
If things were strictly linear, which I am sure they aren't, shooting for exactly 9.3Cst at 100C would give ~7430cP at -30C for CCS. This would be a good bit above the 6600cP spec for a 5W30, although my calculation is probably worth even less than the power it took from the batteries in my HP15C (yes, I'm old and so is my calc).
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
I would also not assume that Redline oils are necessarily VII-free. I could happily agree that their 10W30 might be VII-free but their 5W30? I'd really expect to see some VII there (albeit a lot less than with a conventional 5W30).
I have certainly heard talk on here of 5W20s and 10W30s without VIIs, but is it really feasible to make a 5W30 without them?
I mean, something that isn't going to cost $50 a quart...
Just using Mobil's PAO bases:
SpectraSyn 8 has the following specs:
Visc @ 40C: 48cSt
Visc @ 100C: 8cSt
CCS @ -30C: 4,800cP
MRV @ -40C: 16,200cP
Pour Point: -54F
So it would easily obtain the 5w-xx designation.
SpectraSyn 10 has the following specs:
Visc @ 40C: 66cSt
Visc @ 100C: 10cSt
CCS @ -30C: 8,840cP
MRV @ -40C: 36,650cP
Pour Point: -54F
It would be a tad heavy, straight-up, to pass CCS to meet the 5w-xx designation but easily would pass the 10w-xx one.
I could see mixing them together to possibly do both? But then there's the impact of the add pack, which might screw things up.
Great info, thanks very much!
I didn't realize until now that the SpectraSyns were PAO base stocks.
This is also a good illustration of how pour points don't necessarily have much to do with CCS and MRV results!
If things were strictly linear, which I am sure they aren't, shooting for exactly 9.3Cst at 100C would give ~7430cP at -30C for CCS. This would be a good bit above the 6600cP spec for a 5W30, although my calculation is probably worth even less than the power it took from the batteries in my HP15C (yes, I'm old and so is my calc).
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Yeah, I'd think you'd use SpectraSyn 8 or lighter and blend it with an AN or mPAO that was much heavier that would bring the visc up more, but you wouldn't use enough of it to tank the CCS. I'm not a blender though, so that could be completely offside, LOL!
5w30 Redline is an anomaly as far as base oil goes. I can't find a single oil that beats it anywhere, NOACK, CsT, HTHS. And this thread is about hemi tick, so what is the oil doing in that spot? To know we would need uoa's to see if there is shearing and to what extent, and what different brands. My two uoa's on hemi tick and redline where 9.34 CsT my first oil change that ended the tick, redline 5w20 1 year 5k miles. And second tun 5w20 redline and a two year 10k mile oci had my CsT at 9.17. Like no shearing at all worth noting, these numbers are still higher then what they say their CsT starts at. I moved over to 5w30 and will get that two year OCI read in January.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Since virgin is 9.0, I'd say you might have seen a touch of oxidation. But of course there's batch variability, the accuracy of the tests themselves....etc. So you are probably where you should be viscosity-wise. Given it probably has no VII's in it, I wouldn't expect shear. Fuel dilution would be the only reason for viscosity loss, but you appear to not be suffering from that.
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
I would also not assume that Redline oils are necessarily VII-free. I could happily agree that their 10W30 might be VII-free but their 5W30? I'd really expect to see some VII there (albeit a lot less than with a conventional 5W30).
I have certainly heard talk on here of 5W20s and 10W30s without VIIs, but is it really feasible to make a 5W30 without them?
I mean, something that isn't going to cost $50 a quart...
Just using Mobil's PAO bases:
SpectraSyn 8 has the following specs:
Visc @ 40C: 48cSt
Visc @ 100C: 8cSt
CCS @ -30C: 4,800cP
MRV @ -40C: 16,200cP
Pour Point: -54F
So it would easily obtain the 5w-xx designation.
SpectraSyn 10 has the following specs:
Visc @ 40C: 66cSt
Visc @ 100C: 10cSt
CCS @ -30C: 8,840cP
MRV @ -40C: 36,650cP
Pour Point: -54F
It would be a tad heavy, straight-up, to pass CCS to meet the 5w-xx designation but easily would pass the 10w-xx one.
I could see mixing them together to possibly do both? But then there's the impact of the add pack, which might screw things up.
You were spot on with the last sentence. The DI pack, and more specifically the Ashless Dispersant in the DI pack, screws everything up!
Ashless polymer, a bit like VII polymer is a high temperature oil thickener. It typically might have a KV100 of 400 cst. However, unlike VII, molecules of Ashless don't 'collapse' in on themselves at low temperatures. As the temperature goes down, they get thicker, and thicker and THICKER still! You can't physically measure the low temperature CCS viscocity of Ashless but if you could, it would run to several million cP!
It's that disproportionality of the effect of Ashless on the oil's viscometric balance that forces you away from using stuff like PAO 8 & 10 and towards PAO 4 & 6 (with of course a big slug of VII polymer to re-establish your KV100).
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
I would also not assume that Redline oils are necessarily VII-free. I could happily agree that their 10W30 might be VII-free but their 5W30? I'd really expect to see some VII there (albeit a lot less than with a conventional 5W30).
I have certainly heard talk on here of 5W20s and 10W30s without VIIs, but is it really feasible to make a 5W30 without them?
I mean, something that isn't going to cost $50 a quart...
Just using Mobil's PAO bases:
SpectraSyn 8 has the following specs:
Visc @ 40C: 48cSt
Visc @ 100C: 8cSt
CCS @ -30C: 4,800cP
MRV @ -40C: 16,200cP
Pour Point: -54F
So it would easily obtain the 5w-xx designation.
SpectraSyn 10 has the following specs:
Visc @ 40C: 66cSt
Visc @ 100C: 10cSt
CCS @ -30C: 8,840cP
MRV @ -40C: 36,650cP
Pour Point: -54F
It would be a tad heavy, straight-up, to pass CCS to meet the 5w-xx designation but easily would pass the 10w-xx one.
I could see mixing them together to possibly do both? But then there's the impact of the add pack, which might screw things up.
You were spot on with the last sentence. The DI pack, and more specifically the Ashless Dispersant in the DI pack, screws everything up!
Ashless polymer, a bit like VII polymer is a high temperature oil thickener. It typically might have a KV100 of 400 cst. However, unlike VII, molecules of Ashless don't 'collapse' in on themselves at low temperatures. As the temperature goes down, they get thicker, and thicker and THICKER still! You can't physically measure the low temperature CCS viscocity of Ashless but if you could, it would run to several million cP!
It's that disproportionality of the effect of Ashless on the oil's viscometric balance that forces you away from using stuff like PAO 8 & 10 and towards PAO 4 & 6 (with of course a big slug of VII polymer to re-establish your KV100).
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
You were spot on with the last sentence. The DI pack, and more specifically the Ashless Dispersant in the DI pack, screws everything up!
Ashless polymer, a bit like VII polymer is a high temperature oil thickener. It typically might have a KV100 of 400 cst. However, unlike VII, molecules of Ashless don't 'collapse' in on themselves at low temperatures. As the temperature goes down, they get thicker, and thicker and THICKER still! You can't physically measure the low temperature CCS viscocity of Ashless but if you could, it would run to several million cP!
It's that disproportionality of the effect of Ashless on the oil's viscometric balance that forces you away from using stuff like PAO 8 & 10 and towards PAO 4 & 6 (with of course a big slug of VII polymer to re-establish your KV100).
Class is IN SESSION!
This is great stuff, thanks for sharing!
You were spot on with the last sentence. The DI pack, and more specifically the Ashless Dispersant in the DI pack, screws everything up!
Ashless polymer, a bit like VII polymer is a high temperature oil thickener. It typically might have a KV100 of 400 cst. However, unlike VII, molecules of Ashless don't 'collapse' in on themselves at low temperatures. As the temperature goes down, they get thicker, and thicker and THICKER still! You can't physically measure the low temperature CCS viscocity of Ashless but if you could, it would run to several million cP!
It's that disproportionality of the effect of Ashless on the oil's viscometric balance that forces you away from using stuff like PAO 8 & 10 and towards PAO 4 & 6 (with of course a big slug of VII polymer to re-establish your KV100).
Class is IN SESSION!
This is great stuff, thanks for sharing!
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
I would also not assume that Redline oils are necessarily VII-free. I could happily agree that their 10W30 might be VII-free but their 5W30? I'd really expect to see some VII there (albeit a lot less than with a conventional 5W30).
I have certainly heard talk on here of 5W20s and 10W30s without VIIs, but is it really feasible to make a 5W30 without them?
I mean, something that isn't going to cost $50 a quart...
Just using Mobil's PAO bases:
SpectraSyn 8 has the following specs:
Visc @ 40C: 48cSt
Visc @ 100C: 8cSt
CCS @ -30C: 4,800cP
MRV @ -40C: 16,200cP
Pour Point: -54F
So it would easily obtain the 5w-xx designation.
SpectraSyn 10 has the following specs:
Visc @ 40C: 66cSt
Visc @ 100C: 10cSt
CCS @ -30C: 8,840cP
MRV @ -40C: 36,650cP
Pour Point: -54F
It would be a tad heavy, straight-up, to pass CCS to meet the 5w-xx designation but easily would pass the 10w-xx one.
I could see mixing them together to possibly do both? But then there's the impact of the add pack, which might screw things up.
You were spot on with the last sentence. The DI pack, and more specifically the Ashless Dispersant in the DI pack, screws everything up!
Ashless polymer, a bit like VII polymer is a high temperature oil thickener. It typically might have a KV100 of 400 cst. However, unlike VII, molecules of Ashless don't 'collapse' in on themselves at low temperatures. As the temperature goes down, they get thicker, and thicker and THICKER still! You can't physically measure the low temperature CCS viscocity of Ashless but if you could, it would run to several million cP!
It's that disproportionality of the effect of Ashless on the oil's viscometric balance that forces you away from using stuff like PAO 8 & 10 and towards PAO 4 & 6 (with of course a big slug of VII polymer to re-establish your KV100).
Excellent info, thanks.
So, could one get away from using the Ashless polymer and instead us an AN or mPAO as a high-visc substitute? I touched on that in another post after the above one.
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
I would also not assume that Redline oils are necessarily VII-free. I could happily agree that their 10W30 might be VII-free but their 5W30? I'd really expect to see some VII there (albeit a lot less than with a conventional 5W30).
I have certainly heard talk on here of 5W20s and 10W30s without VIIs, but is it really feasible to make a 5W30 without them?
I mean, something that isn't going to cost $50 a quart...
Just using Mobil's PAO bases:
SpectraSyn 8 has the following specs:
Visc @ 40C: 48cSt
Visc @ 100C: 8cSt
CCS @ -30C: 4,800cP
MRV @ -40C: 16,200cP
Pour Point: -54F
So it would easily obtain the 5w-xx designation.
SpectraSyn 10 has the following specs:
Visc @ 40C: 66cSt
Visc @ 100C: 10cSt
CCS @ -30C: 8,840cP
MRV @ -40C: 36,650cP
Pour Point: -54F
It would be a tad heavy, straight-up, to pass CCS to meet the 5w-xx designation but easily would pass the 10w-xx one.
I could see mixing them together to possibly do both? But then there's the impact of the add pack, which might screw things up.
You were spot on with the last sentence. The DI pack, and more specifically the Ashless Dispersant in the DI pack, screws everything up!
Ashless polymer, a bit like VII polymer is a high temperature oil thickener. It typically might have a KV100 of 400 cst. However, unlike VII, molecules of Ashless don't 'collapse' in on themselves at low temperatures. As the temperature goes down, they get thicker, and thicker and THICKER still! You can't physically measure the low temperature CCS viscocity of Ashless but if you could, it would run to several million cP!
It's that disproportionality of the effect of Ashless on the oil's viscometric balance that forces you away from using stuff like PAO 8 & 10 and towards PAO 4 & 6 (with of course a big slug of VII polymer to re-establish your KV100).
Excellent info, thanks.
So, could one get away from using the Ashless polymer and instead us an AN or mPAO as a high-visc substitute? I touched on that in another post after the above one.
Very interesting discussion. A good trio of posters here.
So have we determined that it's not just the moly that is helping these engines with their ticking? It seems that the logical explanation is that it's a combination of factors including viscosity and HTHS.
Secondly, is there proof that Redline uses moly-dtc in their oils, even at those concentrations? Usually those number point to the use of the older moly components. Oils that have switched to moly-dtc have numbers below 100, usually 70-80 ppm whereas the previous numbers were well above hundred and beyond.
So have we determined that it's not just the moly that is helping these engines with their ticking? It seems that the logical explanation is that it's a combination of factors including viscosity and HTHS.
Secondly, is there proof that Redline uses moly-dtc in their oils, even at those concentrations? Usually those number point to the use of the older moly components. Oils that have switched to moly-dtc have numbers below 100, usually 70-80 ppm whereas the previous numbers were well above hundred and beyond.
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