Molybdenum, Cam wear and Hemi tick

[FlyNavyP3]

Originally Posted By: PimTac
What you are finding out is that BITOG has a fair number of people who are directly involved in the oil industry. Blenders, tribologists plus mechanics and engine builders. These experts like to see scientific evidence that correlates with the subject. Many of us, myself included have been corrected on comments made. I appreciate the expertise that is found here.

Your premise is that moly is the key for solving the tick in your hemispherical engines. It may well be true, however producing a white paper on tri-nuclear molybdenum when we don't even know that Redline uses it is a gap in the process. Assumption and theory will not prove anything. Your results, as good as they are would not stand up to scientific scrutiny.

The Redline is working for you and for others. I think you have accomplished your goal of spreading the word. It probably didn't need 10 pages but there it is.

My final post on this subject. Now you understand why I blocked you.


PIMTAC,

Your reservations echo mine in the way that the information is presented as "fact" or "science" by the OP. I'm exceptionally interested in this subject but I take issue with claiming things as fact or science or that the experiment is scientific in nature. When questioned or challenged the OP resorts to flaming rather than recognizing holes or gaps in the scientific process or welcoming peer review.

SonOfJoe thank you for your continued contributions to the board, as a mechanical engineer by training (not in practice) I always really enjoy the technical aspects and analysis your posts bring to the board.

OP, people here just want to have a discussion. We're not bashing what you e done or the results you've had with any product. Embrace the challenges presented by others to your work, it's meant to be constructive. Well at least my criticism is.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: FlyNavyP3
OP, people here just want to have a discussion. We're not bashing what you e done or the results you've had with any product. Embrace the challenges presented by others to your work, it's meant to be constructive. Well at least my criticism is.

Exactly. If Red Line is a "cure" for this supposed problem, many people would love to know if it could be duplicated by something else, due to things like availability and price. Claiming that only Red Line is the solution and getting mad if that isn't accepted without question isn't helpful.

 

[BrocLuno]

Since Redline and Motul 300V work similarly in my air cooled motorcycle engines in teh desert, I'm wondering how close their chemistry is ... Also wondering if 300V would do the same "tick elimination" trick?

I'll buy that RL does what the OP says. Now the question is what other heavy synthetics will do the same ...

 

[Garak]

The Motul might work, too, but I guess we have to wait until people try. Unfortunately, both products aren't readily available or cheap.

 

[slo town]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: FlyNavyP3
OP, people here just want to have a discussion. We're not bashing what you e done or the results you've had with any product. Embrace the challenges presented by others to your work, it's meant to be constructive. Well at least my criticism is.

Exactly. If Red Line is a "cure" for this supposed problem, many people would love to know if it could be duplicated by something else, due to things like availability and price. Claiming that only Red Line is the solution and getting mad if that isn't accepted without question isn't helpful.


I do think the OP was being honest. I think there are a group of Hemi folks he hangs with, online or otherwise, and for whatever reason his Hemi circle has enjoyed good results using Redline. Although I agree the OP came across as a bit impassioned, there was no need for people to block him. I hope the OP reads this and comes back. He was just trying to be helpful by passing on some anecdotal information. His story ended up being useful to me.

Strange thing is, the cold start valve train clatter on my son's 2017 Jeep Rubicon... In parallel with the thread, my son tried Redline for his engine noise. Problem solved! We didn't see that possibility coming, realistically.

The fact that this Hemi discussion took place along with my son's switch to Redline gives us even more confidence that Redline has somehow mitigated an unpleasant mechanical noise. To interested others, consider these a set of interesting anecdotal data points.

FWIW, I'm going to put Redline in my high mileage (158K miles), but exceptionally well maintained 2010 Honda Element SC (K24 motor). From new it's had alot of piston slap, especially when cold starting. I seriously doubt Redline will noticeably reduce the noise, but if it does I will become as impassioned as the OP! You'll be hearing from me! Smiling at 'ya!

Scott

 

[BrocLuno]

Originally Posted By: SLO_Town
... I've used Redline Oil products for 25 years. I've used their MTL and Dx-ATF family of products in just about every car I've owned since my 1991 Taurus SHO (a great car!). I've got full confidence in their lubricants. I really think their manual gearbox lubricants are the best set of formulations in the world.

Scott


I agree. MTL is plain magic. It can cure any number of stiff or notchy shifter issues and you will not overheat that oil

 

[Garak]

I don't doubt his claim at all. I certainly didn't block him, and appreciated what he told us. However, this isn't an ordinary automotive forum where people are just looking for a solution. Here, a lot want to know exactly why something is working.

 

[ndfergy]

Passionate, direct, and non-pc but certainly not incorrigible. I kinda liked him. Hope he returns too.

You'd have to be a complete psycho before I block anyone.

 

[PimTac]

The reason I blocked him was he got vehement with anyone who questioned his analysis and got personal with it as well. One of his posts was edited shortly after so you may have missed that. Also, he had a previous thread here that got heated as well. So he started this one.

Somewhere along the way he mentioned he was on a Ram forum discussing the same thing. It's not hard to find under a thread named "synthetic oil". Some interesting reading there if anyone gets the notion to visit.

 

[ndfergy]

Understood. However, there's no right or wrong answer. It's all personal choice.

 

[PimTac]

That's true. I never doubted his findings, just his methods.

 

[Hootbro]

I use to own a Ram and was on the same Ram forum that the OP Burla came from. His demeanor and ability to agitate a discussion by trying to shutdown or steer it only one way and then got miffed when questioned, has been duplicated over there also.

He has hijacked a synthetic oil thread over there and made it into a Redline is the Jesus Juice for the Hemi tick circle jerk with about 4 other members being an echo chamber for each other. Anything that does not follow what Burla thinks is canon for solving the Hemi tick, he either does passive aggressive beratement or claims he is done with the thread claims to leave and never return. But he cannot stay away too long and usually comes back acting like the return of Jesus to us peons.

The guy is not dumb but very conceited and condescending.

 

[ndfergy]

Well, if there's any takeaway hopefully Burla picks up on SonofJoe's suggestion with a heavier grade group I oil. I think that might work. If not better, certainly cheaper.

 

[KenO]

I read about 10 pages and stopped. Somebody mentioned MOS2, but nobody has discussed it. Are there merits to simply using MOS2 with your favorite oil instead of Redline?

 

[BrocLuno]

It's the kind of Moly that matters and there are a number of incarnations of moly. Redline's seems to be effective per SonofJoe's analysis.

I have issues with the roller design. There should not be little needle bearings in these things. If they bounce, they brunell and eventually fail. They stop rolling and that's the end of the cam lobe.

My roller cam racer buds have all gone to trunion rollers (Isky) and have had very few failures.

The only real reason to go to rollers in the first place is because the geometry of the cam ramps will not work with flat tappets. The ramps are too steep. OK, so you do get more "area under the curve" that way. And you can do it with less lift, so less valve spring is needed. But, steep ramps mean more violent closing events and that is skirting with lifter bounce ...

If RL can cushion stuff and keep it all happy, it's as good a fix as any ... We rely on exotic oils all the time for hi-po motors. This is no different, it's just a factory version ...

USA buyers have always been the guinea pigs for the factories. Since I was a child, we have bought stuff that worked most of the time, but occasionally not. GM's mid-80's cam failures are an example. Some of their trannies were awful. Tempest with flex drive and swing axles ... Corvair with balance and aero issues. Fords Cruise-O-Matic that would break the center web if you looked at in reverse. Nash/Rambler goofy front suspension that would steer you off the road with a spring break, Continental's cam drive for the prop, the list goes on ...

Figure it out and do the work around. It's the American Way

 

[SonofJoe]

This maybe complete junk I'm about to spout but bear with me...

Now I'm the world's worst mechanic but in the last 24 hours, I've been trying to educate myself about hydraulic lifters; how they work, how they stick and why they can cause 'tick' when they go wrong.

YouTube has been my guide. I found this clip (of a ticking 2012 Dodge Ram) very interesting...

https://youtu.be/AQRBmBlZQpY

It seems to suggest that the ticking sound gets worse as the engine warms up.

I also viewed another video (can't find it now) which showed a ticking Hemi that had done a lot of miles and had very low oil pressure.

So, for what it's worth, here's my theory on why Redline might be working...

Hydraulic lifters require oil pressure to 'pump up'. As engines age, they wear and maximum oil pressure (immediately downstream of the oil pump), for any given condition will reduce vs the 'as new' baseline. One might also expect, when you start the engine cold, oil pressure will be higher that when the engine is hot because the frictional drag from a cold, viscous oil will be greater than that for a hot, thin oil.

Now given that a faulty lifter is such an obvious potential cause of Hemi tick, I'm guessing that in the past, folks have done what all good mechanics do and that is pull all the lifters and either clear them up or replace them with new ones. I'm further going to assume that the fact people are still talking about this problem, means that cleaned or new lifters DON'T solve the problem.

It's been close to 35 years since I did any serious fluid dynamics number crunching but I am wondering to myself if denser Redline oil is creating higher oil pressure than oils of a similar viscosity? From what I've read, Polyol Ester base oils are by design, more polar than 'normal' base stocks. I suspect it's that polarity that pulls the molecules closer together to create a higher density liquid (a bit like hydrogen-bonding in water).

Now your oil pump is, for any given speed, designed to shift a fixed VOLUME of oil. However, if you compare pure PAO 6 and Hatcol 2352, if, for the sake of argument, your oil pump is moving 1 litre/minute of oil, you will be moving 827 grams/minute of PAO but 963 g/m of Polyol Ester. If I remember my basic kinetic physics, the power draw on the pump will be based on the WEIGHT of oil shifted, not the volume. Likewise the kinetic energy transferred to the oil will be higher for the denser oil. Now given that for a given full oil circuit, all the kinetic energy in both oils must be fully dissipated, it sort of follows that the 'extra' energy in the Polyol Ester might manifest itself as higher oil pressure (?).

Now it might just possibly be that in a worn, high mileage engine, operating on a thin modern engine oil (especially when the engine is warmed up) that you are not generating enough oil pressure to 'pump up' all of the lifters. I am particularly thinking that the last lifter at the end of the oil gallery might be especially prone to this (I'm guessing you only need one bad lifter to cause audible tick?). If a thin but dense Redline oil generates even a bit more oil pressure, it might be enough to 'pump up' the offending bad lifter.

I am also wondering if the polar nature of Polyol Ester base oil causes it to 'hang on' to it's higher density as the oil warms up (density usually decreases with increasing temperature). This also might help.

 

[SonofJoe]

I missed the window to edit my post but I was thinking that it would be pretty easy to test this theory.

If you've 'cured' a tick by using Redline oil, does the tick return if you change back to a conventional oil? If it doesn't, my theory is garbage. If it does, it might be that one way or another, density is the driver; not DI composition.

 

[burla]

Someone PM'd me and told me Hootbro demolished me over here and I didn't believe him. I guess personal attacks are allowed. I wouldn't have expected that from you. I certainly do not threaten to leave that thread, that was someone else.

What would you expect from guys that had one brand do what it did? 5 years, many oils, many behind scenes discussions, every idea was giving thought and untold number of brands and additives tested. Now, we have a result and many people here obviously already know it as they participated in this thread as well. Two new guys this week, also killed their ticks. And 95% of the time when asked I recommend non redline oils, only in tick do I recommend redline. The arguments over there came when people didn't accept the results of all of the people reporting. Try telling someone that had that results, that they are full of it. All of the guys just aren't trying to here that, every single one of them know that redline killed their ticks, so yes of course they will have some loyalty.

5 years plenty of attacks, it's all good I left the info do what you want. Hopefully it will help someone down the line.

I have much better things to do then deal with high school keyboard type stuff. I was just trying to leave some helpful information. Take it to the next level or not, discuss it and come up with theories all good. I learned some good stuff and appreciate the info. When the message is what this message is, the messenger will get hammered, as you see here and over there. I have paid enough price and put in enough effort, and the one way attacks the mods allow but yet banning me and editing me because I say grow up. Cmon man I'm an old man, you can have this forum. I was just trying to help

 

[Shannow]

Sonof Joe,
I respectfully disagree on some parts of your post.



Above is a cutaway of the Chrysler Hemi hydraulic lifter...like most hydraulic lifters (formerly referred to as "zero lash" if that shows my age), the clearance isn't reduced by oil pressure "pumping" the lifter, that quite big spring is supposed to remove the lash, then the oil flows in, and is captured by a Non Return valve inside the lifter body, and the oil being essentially incompressible makes the lifter "solid" on the upstroke.

A bad NRV back in my Holden/Chev days would make for a clattery lifter. If u ran it with the valve covers off, you could feel the impact loads as the zero lash ended up with lash...adjusting was back them off until they had lash (felt via placing your finger on the rocker and feeling the impact), then tightening down to zero impact, and a little more. A bad NRV always was bad.

The lifters "bleed" down between strokes, dependent on viscosity and RPM...cold start, and the few that were under load clattered like nothing else until they got refilled after a few seconds of oil pressure.

Later, some enterprising people started the high bleed lifters that bled down excessively at low cycle speeds (RPM), and made the cam effectively smaller duration and lift by bleeding down...at high RPM, due to the rates of theings moving, they couldn't lose as much oil volume as fast, and the cam timing returned to closer to the design.

Chrysler in their MDS system take it that much further...



Cut the oil to the cylinders that you want to de-activate, which implies an almost instantaneous bleed-down requirement, to allow them to be on/off...needs comparatively large volumes of oil to refill them too, and the regular bleed down rate must be necessarily high.

Also means that the roller, instead of following the cam profile is free floating, controlled only by the internal spring, which SHOULD be OK...but then when you starte to re-oil/refill, there's a number of cycles that "bang" turn solid mid way up the upstroke...at the point of maximum acceleration.

Engineering wise, that's bad Mojo.

So I sort of part agree, part disagree.

 

[PimTac]

SonofJoe,

To answer one of your questions, does the tick return if you switch from Redline back to conventional, something I had noticed and commented on was that there was a delay. Typically 2000-3000 miles before the tick returned. This varied of course. Going in the other direction, those who switched to Redline from other oils did not get results right away. Again it was 1-2-3000 miles into running the Redline before the tick went away. The effects either way were gradual and this lead me to think that the moly or the tribofilm needed to set up for best results. Again, this is layperson guessing in my part but it made the discussion very interesting from that point.