Molybdenum, Cam wear and Hemi tick

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Originally Posted By: clinebarger

That's a Selectively Austempered Ductile Iron Cam Core (SADI), This material IS NOT suitable for Roller Cam applications, Even after the hardening process.....The work surface is still cast iron!!

In the 90's some budget aftermarket (Retro-fit) roller cams were SADI cores, Failure rates were VERY high, I can't believe an OEM manufacturer would use this in their "flagship" engine.




These cams are around $68 dealer cost.
 
I had an 05 Durango Hemi, bought new and around 70k miles it started getting the Hemi tick. Had changed the oil every 4-5k at the dealer. It started burning oil so bad that the tailgate was noticeably oily and you could see the rainbow oil slick on the glass. Got rid of it once that started.
 
however this turns out long term for me, this is my last hemi. Too many guys on the hemi boards are getting this garbage. So far it is nice to have an option to silence the tick.
 
220k miles on my wifes hemi truck. Engine is very quiet. No tick at all.
Have used Blain's Farm and Fleet 5w-20 dino since new. Made by Citgo. Not sure of the Moly content.

FWIW...
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: burla
Slotown that same experience has played out over and over to the point I myself can't believe the success rate. It goes against traditional thinking that using a different oil can fix something. I have experienced much hatred for simply wanting to share the experience. Such a small investment that can potentially save a lot of headache.

What made you think redline could help? Or where you just using it and it happened to help? I had a guy run every top oil in the book, only redline 5w30 helped his tick go away.


My notion was that oil was draining out of the lifters. With Redline being a polyolester, the polarity it has with internal engine components made me wonder whether Redline would stay in the lifters better than a non-ester oil would.

My thinking runs contrary to yours because you believe it's the moly curing things. With my son's Jeep I think it's the ester's polarity. The hemi valve train"tick" with "your guys" is different than the the cold start clatter my son's Rubicon has - different problems.

Doesn't matter, Redline seems to have solved both your problem and ours.

Lastly, I've used Redline Oil products for 25 years. I've used their MTL and Dx-ATF family of products in just about every car I've owned since my 1991 Taurus SHO (a great car!). I've got full confidence in their lubricants. I really think their manual gearbox lubricants are the best set of formulations in the world.

Scott
 
Originally Posted By: burla
Thanks great post there. So over and over we have one lob that causes an issue, not the entire cam shaft. Seams to make sense we usually have one or two lifters causing hemi tick and not all of them at once. I certainly can't say for a fact the cam wont fail anyway, just that the raspy sewing machine sound goes to butter smooth. I am going on 5 years tick free and I only run redline. Either 5w20 or 30, doesn't seam to matter to me, paired with a RP filter.


I try to avoid arguments about what oil is better than another, If it's working for you....That's great!
On the other hand.....We really shouldn't have to discuss/argue this when it comes to roller camshafts.

When a camshaft fails...It's generally just one lobe that fails. The cam lobe surfaces are not pressure lubricated, They depend on slung oil from the rotating assembly/Oil squirt holes on the big end of the connecting rods, Not all 16 lifters/Lobes are going to receive the same amount of lube.

A "Tick" may mean a underlying mechanical issue.....If the lifter roller leaves the camshaft lobe, It will crash back down on the lobe & has a possibility to compromise the surface hardening on the cam lobe.

Induction Hardened 5150 Cam Cores have had issues as well, GM LS engines are an example but failure rates are far below 1%. When I run across on e of these failures, I check the "Rate" on all the Valve Springs, The weakest one is ALWAYS on the failed Lobe. Valve control is VERY important.

I use custom 8620 Carburized Nickel-Chromium-Molybdenum Camshafts in all my builds without a failure to date with upwards of 400# spring pressures.
 
Originally Posted By: SLO_Town
Originally Posted By: burla
Slotown that same experience has played out over and over to the point I myself can't believe the success rate. It goes against traditional thinking that using a different oil can fix something. I have experienced much hatred for simply wanting to share the experience. Such a small investment that can potentially save a lot of headache.

What made you think redline could help? Or where you just using it and it happened to help? I had a guy run every top oil in the book, only redline 5w30 helped his tick go away.


My notion was that oil was draining out of the lifters. With Redline being a polyolester, the polarity it has with internal engine components made me wonder whether Redline would stay in the lifters better than a non-ester oil would.

My thinking runs contrary to yours because you believe it's the moly curing things. With my son's Jeep I think it's the ester's polarity. The hemi valve train"tick" with "your guys" is different than the the cold start clatter my son's Rubicon has - different problems.

Doesn't matter, Redline seems to have solved both your problem and ours.

Lastly, I've used Redline Oil products for 25 years. I've used their MTL and Dx-ATF family of products in just about every car I've owned since my 1991 Taurus SHO (a great car!). I've got full confidence in their lubricants. I really think their manual gearbox lubricants are the best set of formulations in the world.

Scott
Scott


The 3.6 is a ohc engine the lifters in them are different. The lifters sit in a bore opposite of the valve and the camshaft is in between. The rocker arm rides across the valve, cam and lifter like a upside down see-saw.
 
Originally Posted By: SLO_Town
Originally Posted By: burla
Slotown that same experience has played out over and over to the point I myself can't believe the success rate. It goes against traditional thinking that using a different oil can fix something. I have experienced much hatred for simply wanting to share the experience. Such a small investment that can potentially save a lot of headache.

What made you think redline could help? Or where you just using it and it happened to help? I had a guy run every top oil in the book, only redline 5w30 helped his tick go away.


My notion was that oil was draining out of the lifters. With Redline being a polyolester, the polarity it has with internal engine components made me wonder whether Redline would stay in the lifters better than a non-ester oil would.

My thinking runs contrary to yours because you believe it's the moly curing things. With my son's Jeep I think it's the ester's polarity. The hemi valve train"tick" with "your guys" is different than the the cold start clatter my son's Rubicon has - different problems.

Doesn't matter, Redline seems to have solved both your problem and ours.

Lastly, I've used Redline Oil products for 25 years. I've used their MTL and Dx-ATF family of products in just about every car I've owned since my 1991 Taurus SHO (a great car!). I've got full confidence in their lubricants. I really think their manual gearbox lubricants are the best set of formulations in the world.

Scott


Good points, I formulated the opinion it was the moly due to the 500 miles it seamed many guys needed after the change for the tick to go away. Matches up with some of the paper out there are far as the plating. While others have had it go away immediately. For us to know for sure we would need a formula like redline with either just the high moly and maybe group 3 or the high ester/pao base w/o the moly, and I don't see that anywhere. To me the formula isn't as simple as the result. My hemi aint knocking, I'm thinking this is a positive thing.
 
Originally Posted By: clinebarger

I try to avoid arguments about what oil is better than another, If it's working for you....That's great!
On the other hand.....We really shouldn't have to discuss/argue this when it comes to roller camshafts.


It isn't me, it is a group of guys. And "better" is an argument we all avoid, but as far as eliminating ticks, this seams to have a high success rate.

As far as Cams go, and I urge you to take a look at the link from infinion. There are a lot of "coincidences". The last 6 random cam fails in a row have been cams with non moly oil in use on our board. Pair that with many cam issues too many to count paired with hemi tick. And pair that with many guys eliminating tick with Redline oil. We have been dealing with this in our forum for nearly 5 years, so nobody believes in these coincidences there. In fact, we see a correlation. But no doubt it wouldn't be enough for the pro's at bob's to see our long term correlation. That is why we should start over and get more guys to further the discussion and testing. The bad news is, there are no shortage of guys with hemi tick, it seams new cases are coming every week. So I'm sure if we get this going here, we can get 5 more years of stats to discuss.
 
yeah well as it turns out there are sticky's of this hemi tick and lifter fails on the boards. So hemi's have great points and weak points. That isn't bashing, just the truth.
 
and this I can tell you from a long time Ford guy. Ram is the best truck going despite a few weaknesses. deserving of winning truck of the year 3 outta 4 years when going to the 4 gens. coil back suspension, dare I say revolutionary for a 1500 as far as comfort and drivabilty. the 8 speed can't even fathom the importance that finally dodge has a great tranny. always first to get high hp numbers, mopar sets the bar for the rest rise too. but back on point, we need some fix's for a couple little nagging issues and this seams to be one.
 
Originally Posted By: clinebarger
Originally Posted By: burla
Thanks great post there. So over and over we have one lob that causes an issue, not the entire cam shaft. Seams to make sense we usually have one or two lifters causing hemi tick and not all of them at once. I certainly can't say for a fact the cam wont fail anyway, just that the raspy sewing machine sound goes to butter smooth. I am going on 5 years tick free and I only run redline. Either 5w20 or 30, doesn't seam to matter to me, paired with a RP filter.


I try to avoid arguments about what oil is better than another, If it's working for you....That's great!
On the other hand.....We really shouldn't have to discuss/argue this when it comes to roller camshafts.

When a camshaft fails...It's generally just one lobe that fails. The cam lobe surfaces are not pressure lubricated, They depend on slung oil from the rotating assembly/Oil squirt holes on the big end of the connecting rods, Not all 16 lifters/Lobes are going to receive the same amount of lube.

A "Tick" may mean a underlying mechanical issue.....If the lifter roller leaves the camshaft lobe, It will crash back down on the lobe & has a possibility to compromise the surface hardening on the cam lobe.

Induction Hardened 5150 Cam Cores have had issues as well, GM LS engines are an example but failure rates are far below 1%. When I run across on e of these failures, I check the "Rate" on all the Valve Springs, The weakest one is ALWAYS on the failed Lobe. Valve control is VERY important.

I use custom 8620 Carburized Nickel-Chromium-Molybdenum Camshafts in all my builds without a failure to date with upwards of 400# spring pressures.


Congratulations on two beastly good posts in this thread. Who's using 8620 blanks to make their cams?
 
Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
Who's using 8620 blanks to make their cams?


I use Crower on non-LSx stuff. Cam Motion on LSx engines.

A picture of the a Cam Motion 8620 camshaft that's in my Camaro, You can see the Chromium in the blank!

lR3fRKt.jpg
 
clinebarger States:That's a Selectively Austempered Ductile Iron Cam Core (SADI), This material IS NOT suitable for Roller Cam applications, Even after the hardening process.....The work surface is still cast iron!!

In the 90's some budget aftermarket (Retro-fit) roller cams were SADI cores, Failure rates were VERY high, I can't believe an OEM manufacturer would use this in their "flagship" engine. +1 As a well respected engine shop here,with many Millions of engine re-builder miles since 1950, and working with the aftermarket cam companys here for years, as stated above,the reason is clear why the/these issues come up. Poor choice of core materials.
 
Originally Posted By: burla
It goes against traditional thinking that using a different oil can fix something. I have experienced much hatred for simply wanting to share the experience. Such a small investment that can potentially save a lot of headache.

You shouldn't be surprised. There are two problems working against you. First off, people get irate if an ordinary, specified oil (and Chrysler isn't specifying anything exotic or expensive by any stretch of the imagination) isn't sufficient, and the alternative is costly. Beyond that, if there is a design flaw (or an expensive symptomatic relief), the messenger does, generally, get shot.
wink.gif
 
I'm not surprised, man I have been doing this for 5 years, lol. Been attacked by every key board warrior around. But, I did help 16 guys get rid of a problem, it is ok with me if I help some more. To a man everyone them are grateful their tick is gone. For those who don't understand, plenty of youtubes what I am talking about. It is more like hemi knock, but whatever, there seams to be a quiet solution.
 
A good spell check is invaluable when posting. There is a big difference between seam and seem. Call me a spelling curmudgeon if you want but misspelled words stick out like a sore thumb.
 
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