Molybdenum, Cam wear and Hemi tick

[Kamele0N]

Originally Posted By: car51

Originally Posted By: tig1

GM had "soft cams" some 30-35 years ago. Poor design as perhaps Chrysler engines have.

Chrysler now owned by FIAT; that's the MAJOR problem

Hahahaha....good one! Cant recall any camshaft problems here over the pond...... Only problems with 6gear gearboxes on their Ducatos.......was/is this GM derivate?

 

[demarpaint]

I wonder how LM MoS2 would do, or Biotech Engine Protectant in a 5W30 oil instead of RL oil?

 

[burla]

Originally Posted By: VNTS

Are you sure the follower isnt the problem, the bearings in the roller sometimes fail, then the roller sticks, and ruins the lobe? Any causation relative to certain years,MDS vs non-MDS? so besides redline, what other hi moly oils are folks using, and if given enough time using Redline, will the cam still fail?

I was the first to have redline 5w20 end my lifter tick, it has been gone for 4 years plus, followed by uoa's all along the way. Most are mds, but some of the 2500's are having ticks as well. I guess it could be roller bearings, as all of this time and we still do not have a definitive answer on hemi tick, just that 16 guys hemi tick is a thing of the past. I'm not sure why redline would have prevented the rollers from ticking after they started ticking, as opposed to the walls the lifter slides up on.

 

[SilverSnake]

I use PUP in both my Hemi's and have no tick at all.

 

[DoubleWasp]

The engine in my dirt bike is a known rocker roller and cam eater. Maybe I should be running a Moly oil. I'll have to do some research.

 

[slo town]

burla and others: A somewhat related observation about my son's brand new 2017 Jeep Rubicon with the 3.6L V6 and valve train "tick". Redline 5W-20 seeming to have stopped it. https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthr...sto#Post4497002 Just adding to the discussion. Scott

 

[BigD1]

Were Hemi motors known to wipe cams before the roller rocker era?

 

[burla]

SloTown thanks abut ten tons for that post. This is why I am posting this up myself, to help guys who are in the same boat as me. That's it, end of story. Glad to see what we have been seeing over there for the last 5 years.

 

[Omahaug]

Originally Posted By: burla

This is the kind of thing happening over and over with hemi tick. One lob gets wiped out, thus turning into a 7 thousand dollar dealer fix. Hemi tick leads to wear here, downstream at the cam!! The other forum has been testing now nearly 5 years.

Holy moly , looks like Pac Man took a bite out of it!

 

[slo town]

Originally Posted By: burla

SloTown thanks abut ten tons for that post. This is why I am posting this up myself, to help guys who are in the same boar as me. That's it, end of story. Glad to see what we have been seeing over there for the last 5 years.

You're welcome. I just saw my son this morning, still not a single startup with valve clatter. Not once. I think it's beyond the knowledge of anyone on BITOG to know exactly why some valve trains are noisy and/or failing. Or why some of the same gen motors do it, and others do not. Nor can it be said empirically, why Redline seemed to fix the problem with my son's Rubicon. What I can state empirically is that Redline Oil installed 16 days ago has resulted in not a single instance of cold start valve train clatter. Before Redline, he had a 80%-90% chance of clatter. Those are powerful odds. Redline "seems" to have fixed the "problem", or at least masked it, or maybe it will come back. The moral of the story is this, if you have valve tick/clatter and it's bugging you, try Redline. It might work, or it might not. Scott

 

[VNTS]

Originally Posted By: BigD1

Were Hemi motors known to wipe cams before the roller rocker era?

they always had roller cams. but they have special mds lifters on half the cylinders. looking at ram forum, some have misfire which turns into a wiped out lobe, but feedback seems to be failed roller sticks and takes out the cam lobe. of course many are posting 200k+ miles and no failures so go figure

 

[burla]

Slotown that same experience has played out over and over to the point I myself can't believe the success rate. It goes against traditional thinking that using a different oil can fix something. I have experienced much hatred for simply wanting to share the experience. Such a small investment that can potentially save a lot of headache. What made you think redline could help? Or where you just using it and it happened to help? I had a guy run every top oil in the book, only redline 5w30 helped his tick go away.

 

[fdcg27]

So, for someone facing this problem with their FCA "hemi", maybe Red Line would be worth a try? Can't hurt anything other than their wallet and might help.

 

[JustN89]

Sorry to hijack this thread, but since we are on the topic of moly, what is the difference (is there one) between Schaeffer's "Micron Moly" and the moly put in Red Line?

 

[burla]

I once emailed redline and they told me they use organic moly, which if I'm not mistaken does also have sulfur atoms as Mos2. So oil soluble Mso2 for lack of better words. TN moly uses Sulfur, Moly plus NR2. I don't know what micron moly is, but again I would wager it has sulfur as a component. When the sulfur is gone, the moly is basically ineffective you if you read the link in the original post.

 

[burla]

I found this... Micron Moly® is a liquid soluble type of moly that plates to the metal.

 

[drfeelgood]

I'll chime in my experience with what may be the Hemi "tick" with my 2010 Jeep Commander with the 5.7 and MDS. Since new it has had the tick, and sounds like an exhaust leak, but brought it to dealer who stated no exhaust leak, for what it is worth. Now have over 58000 miles on it and still a tick. I have tried disabling the MDS with a predator programmer, no difference. Trials of LM MSO2, no difference. Multiple different oils including Schaeffers, no difference. Latest oil is 5w30 Valvoline Maxlife Synthetic, no difference. Different filters, including Motorcraft, Wix and Fram Ultra, no difference. Was thinking about next fill with Schaeffers 5w30 synth, but the possibility that Redline may help has me intrigued. Then again, maybe the dealer just didn't really check for an exhaust leak? This whole Hemi tick issue has me bothered, as I keep my vehicles long-term and I just recently bought a Charger SRT with the 6.4. While it's motor is by no means silent, it sounds more like my LS motors with "sewing machine" like chatter.

 

[burla]

Buddy, you need to give redline a go. check your pm

 

[clinebarger]

Originally Posted By: burla

This is the kind of thing happening over and over with hemi tick. One lob gets wiped out, thus turning into a 7 thousand dollar dealer fix. Hemi tick leads to wear here, downstream at the cam!! The other forum has been testing now nearly 5 years.

That's a Selectively Austempered Ductile Iron Cam Core (SADI), This material IS NOT suitable for Roller Cam applications, Even after the hardening process.....The work surface is still cast iron!! In the 90's some budget aftermarket (Retro-fit) roller cams were SADI cores, Failure rates were VERY high, I can't believe an OEM manufacturer would use this in their "flagship" engine. I know for a fact....When the 3rd gen Hemi came out in 2003, They used a multiple piece 5150 steel alloy camshaft (The Lobes were separate from the center core) which was a cost cutting measure of it's own as they didn't machine a solid billet blank. I'm guessing only the newer year models are affected (When they changed the camshaft material)? This is materials issue, I don't see how changing to a different oil will prevent failure?? I read some patent info on the SADI process, I found this very interesting...... "The advantage of camshafts formed of a ductile cast iron composition made according to this process is evident from stress and wear comparisons. A test fixture was fabricated to simulate engine operating conditions. Sample camshafts were installed in the test fixture and cycled at 545 revolutions per minute (RPM) through several 100,000-mile test simulations. Valve springs were used having loading characteristics which imposed a variety of stresses on the camshaft lobes. Tests of camshafts 10 made of austempered iron according to the invention will sustain Hertzian stresses of approximately 253 KSI without exceeding a 0.002-inch maximum lobe wear limitation. This endurance stress limit proved to be higher than those for camshafts made from either martensitic ductile iron or conventional 0.5% carbon steel alloys" 0.5% Carbon Steel Alloys.....This could most likely be considered 5150, They are basically stating that SADI has better wear characteristics. To bad in the real world this is not the case. 545 camshaft rpm equals 1,090 engine/crankshaft rpm, What engine runs at such a low rpm? They never stated what the spring pressure was during the test (Most stock roller cam engines run at least 170# of seat pressure with the valve open)

 

[burla]

Thanks great post there. So over and over we have one lob that causes an issue, not the entire cam shaft. Seams to make sense we usually have one or two lifters causing hemi tick and not all of them at once. I certainly can't say for a fact the cam wont fail anyway, just that the raspy sewing machine sound goes to butter smooth. I am going on 5 years tick free and I only run redline. Either 5w20 or 30, doesn't seam to matter to me, paired with a RP filter.