Modern oil for 1990 VW Mk2 2.0 16V?

[tylerdurden]

Hello everyone,

This is my first post, but I'm a long time lurker.

I've recently gotten back into Volkswagen Mk2 GTI's and would appreciate some input on what viscosity oil I should be using. The service manual recommends a high viscosity oil, and back in the old (pre-synthetic) days it seemed everyone ran Castrol GTX 20w-50.

My question is this: Did VW spec such heavy oil due to the limitations of conventional oils, or due to wider engineeering tolerances? If it's the former, am I good to use M1 0w-40, or Group IV Liqui-Moly 0w-40? If it's the latter then would M1 15w-50 be a good choice?

Here is a picture of the viscosity chart:

 

[MParr]

I just checked the Mobil 1 site. They recommend 15W40 or 15W50. Those recommendations are based on driving in conditions where the temperature will be at 0 degrees. Pennzoil doesn't go back to 1990.

 

[FCD]

Back in the 80s almost all European cars spec'd 10W-40 or 20W-50.

I think M1 15W-50 would be a great idea if you thrash it hard.

If you lived in Europe i'd recommend you use a 10W-40 meeting ACEA A3/B4 but those are not really available over there.

 

[zeng]

Either M1 0w-40, or Group IV Liqui-Moly 0w-40 carries VW 502.00 certifications and are good to go.

 

[Elgouyo]

In the 1990's, in europe, many people were used to cruse at 130-200 km/h on 2-lines roads, or highway. So oil had hard time protecting engines... 3.5 HTHS was hardly needed.

VW back-specs 504/507 standard for engines until 1996. Before 1996, I don't know if the first VW standard, VW 500.00, was already released, as ACEA didn't exist either. But I don't think so.
VW 500.00 standard garanted that HTHS was bigger than 3.5, because API only aked 2.9 HTHS for 5w- and 10w- by this time.
The second insurance for that was to specify high viscosity oils, such as 20w-40.

In my opinion, this car can go with any oil that specs HTHS bigger than 3.5 (ACEA A3/B4 or VW specs). VW standard 502.00 or 504.00 would be the best.

 

[Kamele0N]

Originally Posted by Elgouyo


In my opinion, this car can go with any oil that specs HTHS bigger than 3.5 (ACEA A3/B4 or VW specs). VW standard 502.00 or 504.00 would be the best.




+1

 

[slybunda]

0W40 wont work?

 

[zeng]

Originally Posted by Elgouyo
In the 1990's, in europe, many people were used to cruse at 130-200 km/h on 2-lines roads, or highway. So oil had hard time protecting engines... 3.5 HTHS was hardly needed.

VW back-specs 504/507 standard for engines until 1996. Before 1996, I don't know if the first VW standard, VW 500.00, was already released, as ACEA didn't exist either. But I don't think so.
VW 500.00 standard garanted that HTHS was bigger than 3.5, because API only aked 2.9 HTHS for 5w- and 10w- by this time.
The second insurance for that was to specify high viscosity oils, such as 20w-40.

In my opinion, this car can go with any oil that specs HTHS bigger than 3.5 (ACEA A3/B4 or VW specs). VW standard 502.00 or 504.00 would be the best.



ACEA specs began probably in 1991 , followed by ACEA 1996 specs and subsequent years.
No luck in getting specs details then.
VW 500.00 was introduced in mid 1990's (or possibly early 1990's ) and superceded by VW 502.00 several years later.
VW 504.00 intro in late 2005, and back spec'ed to 2000.engines.

 

[Elgouyo]

Originally Posted by zeng
Originally Posted by Elgouyo
In the 1990's, in europe, many people were used to cruse at 130-200 km/h on 2-lines roads, or highway. So oil had hard time protecting engines... 3.5 HTHS was hardly needed.

VW back-specs 504/507 standard for engines until 1996. Before 1996, I don't know if the first VW standard, VW 500.00, was already released, as ACEA didn't exist either. But I don't think so.
VW 500.00 standard garanted that HTHS was bigger than 3.5, because API only aked 2.9 HTHS for 5w- and 10w- by this time.
The second insurance for that was to specify high viscosity oils, such as 20w-40.

In my opinion, this car can go with any oil that specs HTHS bigger than 3.5 (ACEA A3/B4 or VW specs). VW standard 502.00 or 504.00 would be the best.



ACEA specs began probably in 1991 , followed by ACEA 1996 specs and subsequent years.




http://www.lube-media.com/wp-conten...ionsystemforengineoilsPetroleumwaxes.pdf

"The ACEA sequences of engine test requirements were first published late in 1995 and formally replaced the existing CCMC sequences from 1 January 1996"

You should look in CCMC specs to know what it was before 1995, but it shouldn't be far better than API specs.

 

[maxdustington]

16V! Edge 0W40 should do the trick year round if you don't want to run dino. It'll probably leak though, so I would run SAE40 or Delo SD 15W30.

 

[zeng]

Originally Posted by Elgouyo
Originally Posted by zeng
Originally Posted by Elgouyo
In the 1990's, in europe, many people were used to cruse at 130-200 km/h on 2-lines roads, or highway. So oil had hard time protecting engines... 3.5 HTHS was hardly needed.

VW back-specs 504/507 standard for engines until 1996. Before 1996, I don't know if the first VW standard, VW 500.00, was already released, as ACEA didn't exist either. But I don't think so.
VW 500.00 standard garanted that HTHS was bigger than 3.5, because API only aked 2.9 HTHS for 5w- and 10w- by this time.
The second insurance for that was to specify high viscosity oils, such as 20w-40.

In my opinion, this car can go with any oil that specs HTHS bigger than 3.5 (ACEA A3/B4 or VW specs). VW standard 502.00 or 504.00 would be the best.



ACEA specs began probably in 1991 , followed by ACEA 1996 specs and subsequent years.




http://www.lube-media.com/wp-conten...ionsystemforengineoilsPetroleumwaxes.pdf

"The ACEA sequences of engine test requirements were first published late in 1995 and formally replaced the existing CCMC sequences from 1 January 1996"

You should look in CCMC specs to know what it was before 1995, but it shouldn't be far better than API specs.

Ok, ACEA was formed in 1991 with ACEA 1996 Sequence being first published.

Edit:"In the US cars are generally powered by large engines operating under far lower stress levels than their European counterparts." that partly explains CAFE.

 

[tylerdurden]

Originally Posted by MParr
I just checked the Mobil 1 site. They recommend 15W40 or 15W50. Those recommendations are based on driving in conditions where the temperature will be at 0 degrees. Pennzoil doesn't go back to 1990.


Yeah, I checked everywhere I could as well. Mobil 1 is sticking with the owners manual. 15w-50 seems like a safe choice, but not necessarily the best one, especially for winter. It's also not 502.00 certified.

 

[tylerdurden]

Originally Posted by zeng
Either M1 0w-40, or Group IV Liqui-Moly 0w-40 carries VW 502.00 certifications and are good to go.


Originally Posted by maxdustington
16V! Edge 0W40 should do the trick year round if you don't want to run dino. It'll probably leak though, so I would run SAE40 or Delo SD 15W30.


Originally Posted by Elgouyo
In the 1990's, in europe, many people were used to cruse at 130-200 km/h on 2-lines roads, or highway. So oil had hard time protecting engines... 3.5 HTHS was hardly needed.

VW back-specs 504/507 standard for engines until 1996. Before 1996, I don't know if the first VW standard, VW 500.00, was already released, as ACEA didn't exist either. But I don't think so.
VW 500.00 standard garanted that HTHS was bigger than 3.5, because API only aked 2.9 HTHS for 5w- and 10w- by this time.
The second insurance for that was to specify high viscosity oils, such as 20w-40.

In my opinion, this car can go with any oil that specs HTHS bigger than 3.5 (ACEA A3/B4 or VW specs). VW standard 502.00 or 504.00 would be the best.




This is what I'd like to believe. I'd like to run M1/LM 0w-40 year round as I do in a B7 S4 and SVX. Having one oil for everything would be quite convenient.

I can't find any indication that VW 500.00 was back-spec'd to 1990, which gives me some pause. That, along with Mobil 1's recommendation, makes me want to stick with M1 15w-50.

But if the consensus is that VW 500.00 should apply, and that the hurdle is a HTHS of 3.5+, then M1/LM 0w-40 qualifies. Woo hoo! Plus it's VW 502.00 certified.

But is it too thin? I'm in Colorado and see 0*-100* every year. So if I forego the official recommendation of 15w-50 and follow the wisdom of the crowd, how would I choose between 0w-40, 5w-40, 10w-40, and all of their subtle differences?

Thanks for everyones input!

 

[Kamele0N]

https://www.shell.com/motorist/oils...mi-synthetic/shell-helix-hx7-10w-40.html

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by tylerdurden
Hello everyone,

This is my first post, but I'm a long time lurker.

I've recently gotten back into Volkswagen Mk2 GTI's and would appreciate some input on what viscosity oil I should be using. The service manual recommends a high viscosity oil, and back in the old (pre-synthetic) days it seemed everyone ran Castrol GTX 20w-50.

My question is this: Did VW spec such heavy oil due to the limitations of conventional oils, or due to wider engineeering tolerances? If it's the former, am I good to use M1 0w-40, or Group IV Liqui-Moly 0w-40? If it's the latter then would M1 15w-50 be a good choice?

Here is a picture of the viscosity chart:


I had that car back in the days. It is great driving machine, and as someone said, in the 1990's driving 200km/h on two lane in Europe was normal, and that thing could do it, easily.
I ran good ole "black" Castrol 15W40 in that engine. You can run pretty much anything W40 in it, but considering your location, I would use 0W40 or 5W40 Castrol from Wal Mart. You could go cheaper, but why? Those oils are not expensive anyway.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted by tylerdurden
If it's the former, am I good to use M1 0w-40, or Group IV Liqui-Moly 0w-40? If it's the latter then would M1 15w-50 be a good choice?

That's the same chart I had for my Audi 200. Depending on what winter starts you see, you could run 15w40 conventional just fine. I did that a lot, also did some RP 0w-40 for a year round fill and the same with Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40.

 

[tylerdurden]

Ok, I think I get it now.

In the olden times the primary criteria was viscosity. If you wanted a high HTHS you had to have a high viscosity... etc.

But nowadays the primary criteria is the factory certification. The secondary criteria is the specific composition of those certified oils and their performance via data sheets and UOA. The advertised viscosity is largely irrelevant, which is the opposite of how it used to be, hence my confusion.

Is that an accurate way of looking at it?

Thanks for everyone's help.

Here's a cool chart I wanted to add to the record for future reference. All VW Mk2 engines (9A, PL, KR, etc.) are classified as R4:

 

[Garak]

Sort of, but one important thing to see is that HTHS viscosity is part of the specification in the first place. The SAE grade, the advertised viscosity, yes, is less important. I suppose that with a current VW/Audi, Benz, or BMW, one might want to split hairs a tiny bit by choosing an approved 0w-40 over an approved 5w-40 if their climate warrants it, but that's about it.

Of course, your car predates the proprietary VW/Audi specifications and OCIs were overly long when following the basic specifications, particularly if using ordinary ILSAC lubes, and not going straight to the 15w40 HDEO. My old Audi was pretty coked up inside. A 12,500 km severe service interval is pretty long on a basic 5w30 or 10w30 ILSAC conventional. It's no coincidence that the specifications tightened up shortly thereafter.

 

[benjy]

being in a cooler climate one of the better 5-40 fake synthetics as most are group III would do well year around IMO

 

[tylerdurden]

Originally Posted by Garak
Sort of, but one important thing to see is that HTHS viscosity is part of the specification in the first place. The SAE grade, the advertised viscosity, yes, is less important. I suppose that with a current VW/Audi, Benz, or BMW, one might want to split hairs a tiny bit by choosing an approved 0w-40 over an approved 5w-40 if their climate warrants it, but that's about it.

Of course, your car predates the proprietary VW/Audi specifications and OCIs were overly long when following the basic specifications, particularly if using ordinary ILSAC lubes, and not going straight to the 15w40 HDEO. My old Audi was pretty coked up inside. A 12,500 km severe service interval is pretty long on a basic 5w30 or 10w30 ILSAC conventional. It's no coincidence that the specifications tightened up shortly thereafter.


Gotcha. So the real question is, was VW spec-ing oil based on HTHS or on viscosity in the days prior to them certifying oils directly?

Assuming (!) that the Castrol GTX of today is the same as it was back then and use it as a comparison, then the 10w40 has a HTHS of 3.6 and cSt of 108.8/14.3. The 20w50 has a HTHS of 3.7 and cSt of 159/18.

M1 0w40 HTHS is 3.6, cSt 70.8/12.9. HTHS ok! cSt too thin!
M1 5w40 has a HTHS of 3.9 (HIGHER that the 20w50 GTX) and a cSt of 80/13.7 (still too thin!).

To get a M1 oil with a 100C cSt of 18 you still have to jump up to their 15w50, which again is what Mobil recommends, and the HTHS jumps to 4.5.

The conundrum is much clearer to me, but the question remains. Is running a thinner viscosity but matching HTHS oil ok?