Help me choose a racing oil

[mtnwest]

Hello fellow enthusiasts! Been a lurker for years and really appreciate members generosity in posting VOA/UOA'S. I've learned a lot from this site over the years and would like to lean on the knowledge of others here as well as give back where I can. When I do oil testing I will share it.

I'm looking for what some consider the best "racing" oil for a new dirt bike I just ordered (Beta 430). Stout HTHS, high levels of zddp, moly, etc. This bike has no emissions and a split case design so engine oil is separate from the clutch. Therefore I can use an oil with more friction modifiers than the typical JASO MA oils that I've used the past 30+ years.

The recommended oil is Liqui Moly offroad 10w-50 which has a kv of 124 and 18.5 at 40/100c. As recent as 2021 it was Motul 7100 10w-40 that is 86 and 13.2. No differences in the engines AFAIK.

I completely understand these oils or ones I have used in the past (t6 15w-40, castrol 4t) etc will be ok. I just believe without the JASO MA wet clutch restrictions I can do better. What say you?

I've been looking into oils such as...

Schaeffers 9001 5w-50
Redline 40wt, 50wt
Mobil 1 racing 0w-50
Mobil 1 15w50 (cheap, at walmart but not much higher zddp, moly)
Eneos 10w-50
Royal Purple XPR 5w-50
Amsoil dominator 10w-40, 15w-50
Driven, Penrite, etc

Preferably something I can buy locally or order from an auto parts store, amazon, etc. Also, drain intervals are 30hrs and I know some of these oils aren't meant for leaving in very long. 30hrs to me might be in 1 week or 7mo depending on the year. Mix of fast racing and slow trail riding.

I appreciate the help!

 

[Plumb Bob]

Call a reputable blender, such as @High Performance Lubricants, or Amsoil and follow their advice.

 

[nascarnation]

Not familiar with motorcycle stuff but I've been watching the Dakar on Peacock and that looks like a pretty challenging duty cycle and environment. Might investigate what those folks are running.

 

[mtnwest]

Anyone reading this think 120hp/L 10k rpm naturally aspirated engine, no emissions. In case it being a motorcycle causes any confusion.

Thanks for the replies so far. What's the typical way people buy amsoil? I know an auto shop by me carries Schaeffers on the shelf. I'll look into HPL as well.

 

[JavierH19]

Something like Valvoline vr1 racing 20w-50 would be more than good for the application. I believe it's 1400 zinc and 1300 phos. Castrol classic which is also high zddp 20w-50 would work but is a lot more than before and likely no better than the vr1

Some stores have it and some don't at least for my local ones so check before going in or just order online as $35+ orders are free.
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Valvolin...assType=VARIANT&athbdg=L1600&adsRedirect=true

 

[Tifosi]

M1 Racing 0W-50 or Valvoline VR1 20W-50 (Available in both conventional and synthetic, I would probably go with synthetic). All three can be purchased from places like AutoZone and O'Reilly's.

Q: Mobil has two motorcycle specific oil, any reason you are not considering motorcycle oil?

https://www.mobil.com/en/lubricants/for-personal-vehicles/motorcycles

 

[Glenda W.]

Both Amsoil and Torco sponsor professional motocross racers. I’d give them a call.

 

[mtnwest]

M1 Racing 0W-50 or Valvoline VR1 20W-50 (Available in both conventional and synthetic, I would probably go with synthetic). All three can be purchased from places like AutoZone and O'Reilly's.

Q: Mobil has two motorcycle specific oil, any reason you are not considering motorcycle oil?

https://www.mobil.com/en/lubricants/for-personal-vehicles/motorcycles

Many motorcycles share the engine oil with the clutch so oils marketed as motorcycle oil can't have high levels of moly/friction modifiers. No doubt good oils but just thinking I could find something that protects even better with this bikes engine oil being separate.

Those two you listed are on my list. The 20w50 valvoline I'm a little concerned about flow at lower temps with the 150 kv at 40°c.

The mobil 0w50 is matches the 40 and 100 kv well. HTHS is 3.9, I wonder how well that holds up?

 

[mtnwest]

Both Amsoil and Torco sponsor professional motocross racers. I’d give them a call.

I forgot about Torco. I remember them I think they're a so cal company. I use to race at the Pomona ca drag strip 25-30 years ago with supercharged or nitrous 5.0's. Good times, been in Idaho just over 20 now.

 

[Kennedy01]

How often are you changing oil? Most racing specific oils aren't heavily fortified with detergent additives and focus primarily on HTHS and anti wear properties.

However the Mobil 1 15w50 you mentioned does have an API SP oriented detergent package along with higher zddp.

If you're wanting something with detergency you might consider that or a HDEO like Mobil Delvac Extreme 15w40, Amsoil Premium Protection 10w40 or 20w50, or Swepco 306 15w40 or 20w50.

If changing often I don't think you could go wrong with any of the racing specific oils you listed in your op.

 

[02SE]

Motul 300V Factory Line

 

[bonjo]

what does the manufacyturer recommend?
For off road race competition, 10w60 is one option: motorex & Elf
Liquimoly & amsoil do a "off road" labelled oil

 

[RDY4WAR]

@High Performance Lubricants is well versed in racing oils for motorcycles given their involvement in Pro Stock Motorcycle and other forms of small engine racing. Their Bad Ass Racing oil in 5W-40 or 10W-50 would be a top recommendation.

You don't need (nor benefit from) high amounts of ZDDP, especially with synergistic effects of moly-based FM. More ZDDP than necessary isn't desirable since it makes the friction coefficient worse. An oil with ~800 ppm Zn/P and >600 ppm Mo, preferrably multiple moly-based additives working in synergy, is going to give you the best result.

 

[mtnwest]

@High Performance Lubricants is well versed in racing oils for motorcycles given their involvement in Pro Stock Motorcycle and other forms of small engine racing. Their Bad Ass Racing oil in 5W-40 or 10W-50 would be a top recommendation.

You don't need (nor benefit from) high amounts of ZDDP, especially with synergistic effects of moly-based FM. More ZDDP than necessary isn't desirable since it makes the friction coefficient worse. An oil with ~800 ppm Zn/P and >600 ppm Mo, preferrably multiple moly-based additives working in synergy, is going to give you the best result.

Interesting about relatively low amounts of ZDDP being ok. I looked into the HPL stuff but they don't have as much information on the interwebs as others, I'll keep digging. Same for some of the euro oils (motul, liqui moly) hard to find all the levels of ZDDP, Moly, etc.

For those that understand this stuff way better than myself here is an example of two oils from Redline:

-------------------------------100v HTHS ZDDP Moly
10w40 High performance---15.1 4.4 1300 500
10w40 Motorcycle-----------14.9 4.7 2100 130

Mobil 15w50-----------------18 4.5 1250 67 + 92 boron

I read on here over the weekend somewhere about dividing the 100 viscosity by the HTHS. The smaller the number the better for shear stability. In that regard the Redline motorcycle is really good vs a lot of oils on my spreadsheet.

Curious on high ZDDP lowish moly vs lower ZDDP high moly. I know the lower ZDDP is for cats and assumed without cats they always put more in for wear protection like racing oils, V-Twin oils, etc.

I also listed a pretty popular Mobil1 15w50 for reference. It's cheap and I could change the oil 2x as often and still save money. Though using less than a quart it's not about saving money. If a $21 Redline lasts 2x longer than a $6 Mobil 1 Redline (or equivelent) saves me time.

 

[mtnwest]

How often are you changing oil? Most racing specific oils aren't heavily fortified with detergent additives and focus primarily on HTHS and anti wear properties.

However the Mobil 1 15w50 you mentioned does have an API SP oriented detergent package along with higher zddp.

If you're wanting something with detergency you might consider that or a HDEO like Mobil Delvac Extreme 15w40, Amsoil Premium Protection 10w40 or 20w50, or Swepco 306 15w40 or 20w50.

If changing often I don't think you could go wrong with any of the racing specific oils you listed in your op.

Oil change at 25-30hrs, could be a weeks worth of riding or 6 months. I'm going to use that delvac extreme 15w40 or t6 on the clutch side. They seem to work great for that (used them in past on bikes that share engine oil with clutch)

 

[RDY4WAR]

Interesting about relatively low amounts of ZDDP being ok. I looked into the HPL stuff but they don't have as much information on the interwebs as others, I'll keep digging. Same for some of the euro oils (motul, liqui moly) hard to find all the levels of ZDDP, Moly, etc.

For those that understand this stuff way better than myself here is an example of two oils from Redline:

-------------------------------100v HTHS ZDDP Moly
10w40 High performance---15.1 4.4 1300 500
10w40 Motorcycle-----------14.9 4.7 2100 130

Mobil 15w50-----------------18 4.5 1250 67 + 92 boron

I read on here over the weekend somewhere about dividing the 100 viscosity by the HTHS. The smaller the number the better for shear stability. In that regard the Redline motorcycle is really good vs a lot of oils on my spreadsheet.

Curious on high ZDDP lowish moly vs lower ZDDP high moly. I know the lower ZDDP is for cats and assumed without cats they always put more in for wear protection like racing oils, V-Twin oils, etc.

I also listed a pretty popular Mobil1 15w50 for reference. It's cheap and I could change the oil 2x as often and still save money. Though using less than a quart it's not about saving money. If a $21 Redline lasts 2x longer than a $6 Mobil 1 Redline (or equivelent) saves me time.

They don't do a lot in the way of marketing.

HPL Bad Ass Racing 10W-50

KV100: 19.03
KV40: 114.8
HTHS: 5.07

Mo: 829
Ca: 1696
Mg: 410
P: 756
Zn: 848

Both high ZDDP + low MoDTC and low ZDDP + high MoDTC will achieve low wear rates. The low ZDDP + high MoDTC combination produces a lower friction coefficient.

 

[Cujet]

I'd never go 30 hours in that situation. Transmission gears do a fine job shearing the VII's in any wide viscosity spread oil. For example, KTM's dirt bikes are known to significantly shear 10W-60 and 5W-50 in as little as 2 hours. Consider M1, 20W-50 motorcycle oil. It's really robust and very shear resistant. 20.8 at 100ºC. HTHS 5.8 (if I remember correctly)

While the oil is marketed towards V-Twins and the high operating temps that can occur there, it is a fine choice for a wide range of racing engines. I've used it with great results in road racing turbocharged cars that tend to operate with excess oil temps.

 

[mtnwest]

@RDY4WAR Is the HPL capable of extended drain intervals? Not meaning exceeding hours or miles but staying in the engine 6 months over winter when use is low. I know some racing oils are just meant for a few track days then replace. Thanks again

 

[mtnwest]

I'd never go 30 hours in that situation. Transmission gears do a fine job shearing the VII's in any wide viscosity spread oil. For example, KTM's dirt bikes are known to significantly shear 10W-60 and 5W-50 in as little as 2 hours. Consider M1, 20W-50 motorcycle oil. It's really robust and very shear resistant. 20.8 at 100ºC. HTHS 5.8 (if I remember correctly)

While the oil is marketed towards V-Twins and the high operating temps that can occur there, it is a fine choice for a wide range of racing engines. I've used it with great results in road racing turbocharged cars that tend to operate with excess oil temps.

I'm thinking of using that M1 v-twin on the gear/clutch side. I like that this engine is one that separates the clutch oil from the engine oil. My only hesitation using it on the engine side is colder starts being a 20w though at 100c it's not much different than the 10w-50's. Thanks

 

[RDY4WAR]

@RDY4WAR Is the HPL capable of extended drain intervals? Not meaning exceeding hours or miles but staying in the engine 6 months over winter when use is low. I know some racing oils are just meant for a few track days then replace. Thanks again

Easily. It uses a complete additive package as the starting point before top treatment so it contains a common detergent pack with a virgin TBN of ~9.5. It's a tri-synthetic formula that resists oxidation quite well. There's quite a few using that oil who change it once a year. After 11 months and 15.9k miles in my wife's Mustang, it still hadn't reach condemnation on TBN or oxidation. Apples to oranges to your case, but just to show despite going >15k miles on top of nearly a year in the sump, it still had life left. Change it once a year before putting away for winter.

If you're worried about rust/corrosion from sitting, HPL formulates to pass the much tougher 24 hour saltwater rust test, as opposed to the easier 4 hour freshwater test for API. Rust won't be a concern.