Mobil 1 & Oil Consumption in Hondas
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Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
..but for our purposes ..the presentation Tom's giving us here, it would not appear that one can attribute this to ...mmm (frustrated here).
Given the numbers he's quoting AND given the (alleged) affinity of M1's consumption ..AND assuming that we're dealing with synthetics ...the volatility numbers aren't that different to warrant the distinction of the product. Everyone else would have to be running POE to matter (or am I reading this incorrectly?).
The question becomes...
What effect do additives have on NOACK?
And thanks Tom.
..but for our purposes ..the presentation Tom's giving us here, it would not appear that one can attribute this to ...mmm (frustrated here).
Given the numbers he's quoting AND given the (alleged) affinity of M1's consumption ..AND assuming that we're dealing with synthetics ...the volatility numbers aren't that different to warrant the distinction of the product. Everyone else would have to be running POE to matter (or am I reading this incorrectly?).
The question becomes...
What effect do additives have on NOACK?
And thanks Tom.
It's NOT due to:
- volatility
- oil leaking past valve guides/seals. If it was, then we'd hear more about oil leaks and weeping past other seals with M1.
So it is likely due to M1 getting above the piston rings more than other oils for those that observe increased oil consumption with it. There are multiple mechanisms for that to occur and I have no way to pin it down any further. Advanced testing would be needed.
- volatility
- oil leaking past valve guides/seals. If it was, then we'd hear more about oil leaks and weeping past other seals with M1.
So it is likely due to M1 getting above the piston rings more than other oils for those that observe increased oil consumption with it. There are multiple mechanisms for that to occur and I have no way to pin it down any further. Advanced testing would be needed.
Quote:
There are multiple mechanisms for that to occur
Can you list some?
There are multiple mechanisms for that to occur
Can you list some?
Originally Posted By: JAG
It's NOT due to:
- volatility
- oil leaking past valve guides/seals. If it was, then we'd hear more about oil leaks and weeping past other seals with M1.
So it is likely due to M1 getting above the piston rings more than other oils for those that observe increased oil consumption with it. There are multiple mechanisms for that to occur and I have no way to pin it down any further. Advanced testing would be needed.
Could your theory be the reason M1 engines keep piston rings so clean from coking? Just a thought.
It's NOT due to:
- volatility
- oil leaking past valve guides/seals. If it was, then we'd hear more about oil leaks and weeping past other seals with M1.
So it is likely due to M1 getting above the piston rings more than other oils for those that observe increased oil consumption with it. There are multiple mechanisms for that to occur and I have no way to pin it down any further. Advanced testing would be needed.
Could your theory be the reason M1 engines keep piston rings so clean from coking? Just a thought.
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Quote:
There are multiple mechanisms for that to occur
Can you list some?
Sure. Two are reverse blow-by and throw-off (fling). Here is a good study: http://www.ricardo.com/Documents/Downloads/pdf/ringpack_lube_oil_consumption.pdf
More documents can be found by Googling "oil consumption rings reverse blow-by" or similar.
Quote:
There are multiple mechanisms for that to occur
Can you list some?
Sure. Two are reverse blow-by and throw-off (fling). Here is a good study: http://www.ricardo.com/Documents/Downloads/pdf/ringpack_lube_oil_consumption.pdf
More documents can be found by Googling "oil consumption rings reverse blow-by" or similar.
Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: JAG
It's NOT due to:
- volatility
- oil leaking past valve guides/seals. If it was, then we'd hear more about oil leaks and weeping past other seals with M1.
So it is likely due to M1 getting above the piston rings more than other oils for those that observe increased oil consumption with it. There are multiple mechanisms for that to occur and I have no way to pin it down any further. Advanced testing would be needed.
Could your theory be the reason M1 engines keep piston rings so clean from coking? Just a thought.
That's a good question and one I've asked myself. We need to find some research that investigates piston and ring cleanliness on oil consumption. It surely has been done. If anyone finds an online document, please post it. I will search as well.
Originally Posted By: JAG
It's NOT due to:
- volatility
- oil leaking past valve guides/seals. If it was, then we'd hear more about oil leaks and weeping past other seals with M1.
So it is likely due to M1 getting above the piston rings more than other oils for those that observe increased oil consumption with it. There are multiple mechanisms for that to occur and I have no way to pin it down any further. Advanced testing would be needed.
Could your theory be the reason M1 engines keep piston rings so clean from coking? Just a thought.
That's a good question and one I've asked myself. We need to find some research that investigates piston and ring cleanliness on oil consumption. It surely has been done. If anyone finds an online document, please post it. I will search as well.
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Oooow...good stuff happening here. We've piqued JAG's interest. Always a good time when he has cause to hang around.
(pssst! JAG- remember our need for down speak ..qt
)
(pssst! JAG- remember our need for down speak ..qt
Gary, you are so kind! I got tied up doing other things so all I've found so far is the following from a Castrol patent from 1999, but the laws of nature haven't changed since then. It's what one would expect: less piston and ring cleanliness causes more oil consumption, generally. The patent, link , states:
Quote:
Standard engine oils run in the TDi test often give poor piston cleanliness and severe ring sticking results as they are not designed to protect these parts at these elevated temperatures. Severe ring sticking often leads to increased blow-by rates which in turn leads to increased oil consumption. In some cases almost 100% of the sump fill can be consumed during the test, resulting in complete engine failure.
This does not mean that more oil consumption implies that it's due to less piston and ring cleanliness, however. The "rule" goes one way but not necessarily the other. It's late so this is it for now.
Quote:
Standard engine oils run in the TDi test often give poor piston cleanliness and severe ring sticking results as they are not designed to protect these parts at these elevated temperatures. Severe ring sticking often leads to increased blow-by rates which in turn leads to increased oil consumption. In some cases almost 100% of the sump fill can be consumed during the test, resulting in complete engine failure.
This does not mean that more oil consumption implies that it's due to less piston and ring cleanliness, however. The "rule" goes one way but not necessarily the other. It's late so this is it for now.
Originally Posted By: buster
Noack for M1 5w30 used to be around 6%. It's now 11-13% since they made the switch to Grp III. Keep that in mind too.
There you go again...
Noack for M1 5w30 used to be around 6%. It's now 11-13% since they made the switch to Grp III. Keep that in mind too.
There you go again...
Originally Posted By: JAG
Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: JAG
It's NOT due to:
- volatility
- oil leaking past valve guides/seals. If it was, then we'd hear more about oil leaks and weeping past other seals with M1.
So it is likely due to M1 getting above the piston rings more than other oils for those that observe increased oil consumption with it. There are multiple mechanisms for that to occur and I have no way to pin it down any further. Advanced testing would be needed.
Could your theory be the reason M1 engines keep piston rings so clean from coking? Just a thought.
That's a good question and one I've asked myself. We need to find some research that investigates piston and ring cleanliness on oil consumption. It surely has been done. If anyone finds an online document, please post it. I will search as well.
I don't have any online documentation, however I have witnessed this very thing in several engines that had poor ring seal, or in air cooled engines run a multi weight oil, or had bad rings, or synthetic multi weight oil. The piston, rings, head, chamber are would be almost crystal clean !! with engines that had rings worn on one side, when the combustion process took place the pressure would seal most of the piston, however the most worn side would still pass oil by, so this side would be super clean, and the same with the head etc... Oil blowing by the rings is a odd thing, it can clean by causing the combustion process to change, it will or can even raise combustion temp, pressure etc giving you a better running engine even more gas mileage !!...
Just some of the many musings I have ran across, stood back saying to myself.... and we want perfect ring to cylinder wall seal .... when you have this near perfection the rings are normally dryish with carbon traces/powder, the top of the piston will have carbon build up, and blackish gunk, same with the head, this stuff is horrible to remove taking caustic soaking in extreme chemicals, or mechanical remove...
with all this said I don't want oil getting past my rings, there are man other things that it will upset causing problems with other areas of the engine....
Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: JAG
It's NOT due to:
- volatility
- oil leaking past valve guides/seals. If it was, then we'd hear more about oil leaks and weeping past other seals with M1.
So it is likely due to M1 getting above the piston rings more than other oils for those that observe increased oil consumption with it. There are multiple mechanisms for that to occur and I have no way to pin it down any further. Advanced testing would be needed.
Could your theory be the reason M1 engines keep piston rings so clean from coking? Just a thought.
That's a good question and one I've asked myself. We need to find some research that investigates piston and ring cleanliness on oil consumption. It surely has been done. If anyone finds an online document, please post it. I will search as well.
I don't have any online documentation, however I have witnessed this very thing in several engines that had poor ring seal, or in air cooled engines run a multi weight oil, or had bad rings, or synthetic multi weight oil. The piston, rings, head, chamber are would be almost crystal clean !! with engines that had rings worn on one side, when the combustion process took place the pressure would seal most of the piston, however the most worn side would still pass oil by, so this side would be super clean, and the same with the head etc... Oil blowing by the rings is a odd thing, it can clean by causing the combustion process to change, it will or can even raise combustion temp, pressure etc giving you a better running engine even more gas mileage !!...
Just some of the many musings I have ran across, stood back saying to myself.... and we want perfect ring to cylinder wall seal .... when you have this near perfection the rings are normally dryish with carbon traces/powder, the top of the piston will have carbon build up, and blackish gunk, same with the head, this stuff is horrible to remove taking caustic soaking in extreme chemicals, or mechanical remove...
with all this said I don't want oil getting past my rings, there are man other things that it will upset causing problems with other areas of the engine....
after 8 pages the answer is:
M1 is designed to burn off, so XOM can can sell even more oil for top offs
You are welcome
Steve
M1 is designed to burn off, so XOM can can sell even more oil for top offs
You are welcome
Steve
I just do not understand why people do not just switch to an oil like PP and problems will be gone. Hardly ever do these oils like PP read with all the problems of Mobil 1 and the need of people to write in and tell you how their Nash Rambler never burnt any oil with Mobil 1. Gives you more time to worry about oil spills etc.
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Originally Posted By: steve20
after 8 pages the answer is:
M1 is designed to burn off, so XOM can can sell even more oil for top offs
You are welcome
Steve
This reminds me of Letterman's TOP TEN LIST.
after 8 pages the answer is:
M1 is designed to burn off, so XOM can can sell even more oil for top offs
You are welcome
Steve
This reminds me of Letterman's TOP TEN LIST.
I've been an active poster and moderator in various Honda forums since 2003, and what the OP observes has always been the case. People who start using M1 when the engine is young experience little or no oil consumption in the long run. While those who make the switch later on either start burning oil when they didn't previously or start using a lot lot more. M1 is much worse in this regard than any other synthetic, and this was so even before they switched to group III.
The user above with the B18b1 would not have low-tension rings in that engine.
The user above with the B18b1 would not have low-tension rings in that engine.
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Very true, there are some engine types that when run with low detergent or dino oils for some years slowly chew up their oil seals and rings due to oil deposits, but they don't use much oil because varnish or even black death sludge tends to prevent leaks. If you then switch to a high detergent content oil like M1, it does not damage the engine or seals BUT tends to dissolve the old oil deposits which sometimes results in an engine that burns or leaks oil. The solution is not to use M1 0/40 but the HM version.
I know a lot of ultra long engine life fans in Germany and their opinion based on many years as professional engineers for diesel engines is that Liqui Moly and Castrol are the best two oil companies. Most of them use LM Synthoil High Tech 5/40 or Castrol Edge 5/40, BUT the ones that have engine pre heaters to reduce cold start wear factors use either Castrol GTX 5/30, Magnetec 10/40 or LM Diesel High Tech 5/40.
These chaps have years of very accurate German UOA results and reports to study and although there are a few amongst them that use M1, the LM and Castrol oils are very popular.
The BMW UOA study showed that if you change GTX 5/40 at regular intervals the results were better than M1 0/40!
I know a lot of ultra long engine life fans in Germany and their opinion based on many years as professional engineers for diesel engines is that Liqui Moly and Castrol are the best two oil companies. Most of them use LM Synthoil High Tech 5/40 or Castrol Edge 5/40, BUT the ones that have engine pre heaters to reduce cold start wear factors use either Castrol GTX 5/30, Magnetec 10/40 or LM Diesel High Tech 5/40.
These chaps have years of very accurate German UOA results and reports to study and although there are a few amongst them that use M1, the LM and Castrol oils are very popular.
The BMW UOA study showed that if you change GTX 5/40 at regular intervals the results were better than M1 0/40!
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