Made the "switch" from M1 to Valvoline Synthetics

[ARCOgraphite]

Calling out? Is this a school playground? Please identify for me where I say someone doesn't know about "oil or analysis".

Someone claimed they knew something based on non-fact. I said that isn't possible. Simple as that. No drama needed.

a bit testy today, are we?

When I raced I did engine builds and teardowns. I don't do that on my passenger cars anymore. Haven't for decades
Even then, are those stuck rings and wiped cam the oil or my build or wear -in or metallurgy?
Is it the oil or something else ?

read my post #94

 

[JoelB]

a bit testy today, are we?

When I raced I did engine builds and teardowns. I don't do that on my passenger cars anymore. Haven't for decades
Even then, are those stuck rings and wiped cam the oil or my build or wear -in or metallurgy?
Is it the oil or something else ?

read my post #94

Yeah I've read all your posts and still stand by everything I've said.

You have no basis for the term quieter. Your ear is not a relevant piece of measuring equipment.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Yeah I've read all your posts and still stand by everything I've said.

You have no basis for the term quieter. Your ear is not a relevant piece of measuring equipment.

Ha Ha ha. I imagine you are a "spec" guy when talking audio equipment also; where the best measuring junk sounded terrible in the 70's. Measuring a few selected parameters doesn't make the gestalt.
The young human ear, both of them in concert is quite the instrument.

I am going deaf with a big sensitivity roll off above 6Khz. If its loud to me, the engine is about to go to lunch

I understand perception vs reality, but give it a break.

You are shouting at a aged renaissance man at 87dBA weighted - not a numb robotic dolt.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Yeah I've read all your posts and still stand by everything I've said.

You have no basis for the term quieter. Your ear is not a relevant piece of measuring equipment.

Are you claiming nobody's ears can hear a difference in engine noises?

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Yeah I've read all your posts and still stand by everything I've said.

You have no basis for the term quieter. Your ear is not a relevant piece of measuring equipment.

There are many pitfalls in recording and measuring noise. And the data can be unreliable. In a moving car, you would likely have to remove road noise if it was masking the engine noise. It is hard to remove noise masking another noise.

JoelB, if you are so inclined, give us a proposed design of experiment and methodology; something an advanced amature recordist
could accomplish with some affordable hardware and desktop tools.

I have been thinking about this since our chat, and I have some ideas myself, but I don't wish to show my hand just yet.
I have made good amateur recordings of orchestra, church choir, pipe organ, rock bands, solo performers, thunderstorms, bedrock blasting(!)
I also have done metrology training for govt contractors.

If we cannot reliably and repeatably measure this, the argument is moot
- Ken

 

[ZeeOSix]

For those who don't believe different oil formulations can change the noise level of an engine.

Study on Engine Noise Level vs Oil Formulation

Thought this was somewhat interesting, especially the engine noise level vs oil formulation used data. We've all seen various threads where people say they can hear an engine noise level difference with different oils, and some say it's "all in their head" or "their ears aren't sensitive enough...

bobistheoilguy.com

 

[aquariuscsm]

I'm thinking about grabbing a jug of Valvoline EP 5W-30 for my next oil change for all the yummy moly Either that or Edge. Decisions decisions!

 

[JoelB]

Are you claiming nobody's ears can hear a difference in engine noises?

My claim is that the human ear cannot reliably notice a change in decibel output from an engine and attribute it to the oil. Too many other variables, ambient noise, temperature, miles on the oil, age of the oil and so on.

Is it possible for different brands, weights, heck even ages of oil to make a difference? Of course.

Can you think the oil made the difference? Sure.

Do you “know” the oil made the difference? No.

 

[tyman]

For those who don't believe different oil formulations can change the noise level of an engine.

Study on Engine Noise Level vs Oil Formulation

Thought this was somewhat interesting, especially the engine noise level vs oil formulation used data. We've all seen various threads where people say they can hear an engine noise level difference with different oils, and some say it's "all in their head" or "their ears aren't sensitive enough...

bobistheoilguy.com

Who needs science when one can have an unsubstantiated opinion without facts to back them up!

That’s crazy talk.

 

[ZeeOSix]

My claim is that the human ear cannot reliably notice a change in decibel output from an engine and attribute it to the oil. Too many other variables, ambient noise, temperature, miles on the oil, age of the oil and so on.

Is it possible for different brands, weights, heck even ages of oil to make a difference? Of course.

Can you think the oil made the difference? Sure.

Do you “know” the oil made the difference? No.

Have you tested and logged every human's hearing performance on Earth? You're making claims with zero proof that nobody can accurately hear any difference in engine noises.

 

[ollie]

My claim is that the human ear cannot reliably notice a change in decibel output from an engine and attribute it to the oil.

I can say as 100% fact if I do nothing but an oil change and the engine was quieter to my ear, then the oil was a contributing factor to the reduced decibel output.

 

[JoelB]

I can say as 100% fact if I do nothing but an oil change and the engine was quieter to my ear, then the oil was a contributing factor to the reduced decibel output.

Let me clarify, I mean specifically changing from brand to brand in the same oil weight. The issue with changing oil is that your pouring out used oil and pouring in fresh oil. So an immediate change in noise cannot be attributed solely to a brand change.

 

[JoelB]

Have you tested and logged every human's hearing performance on Earth? You're making claims with zero proof that nobody can accurately hear any difference in engine noises.

Ahhh clames with zero proof. Just as everyone that says their engine runs smoother on a different oil brand. With no recordable data, ergo from a calibrated device, there is no proof of a decibel change.

let me give you an example. Let’s say there is an unknown length of rope lying on the ground. I could look at it and tell you it’s say 13.25’. But because it was not measured with an instrument that would be an estimation and not a measurement.

 

[PimTac]

If and only if all other things are the same such as car location and speed of the engine idle then if you can sense the newer oil makes the engine quieter then it likely is. That is not scientific though. Having a decibel meter reading from the same location points would be one way to know for sure.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Ahhh clames with zero proof. Just as everyone that says their engine runs smoother on a different oil brand. With no recordable data, ergo from a calibrated device, there is no proof of a decibel change.

let me give you an example. Let’s say there is an unknown length of rope lying on the ground. I could look at it and tell you it’s say 13.25’. But because it was not measured with an instrument that would be an estimation and not a measurement.

Apparently, you didn't read the thread I posted earlier that had controlled testing with data. Different oil formulations certainly did result in a different level of engine noise. Are you now saying that oil formulation doesn't effect engine noise?

You don't always need "measured data" to tell a difference between two things. A better example of rope than yours would be If I lay two different lengths of rope side by side on the ground, and one was 15 inches long and the other was 16 inches long, my eyes will always show me which one is longer. I don't need a measurement of their lengths to know which one is longer, only need my eyes.

 

[JoelB]

Apparently, you didn't read the thread I posted earlier that had controlled testing with data.

You don't always need "measured data" to tell a difference between two things. A better example of rope than yours would be If I lay two different lengths of rope side by side on the ground, and one was 15 inches long and the other was 16 inches long, my eyes will always show me which one is longer. I don't need a measurement of their lengths to know which one is longer, only need my eyes.

Your example is irrelevant since you will not have 2 of your own vehicle running side by side to compare.

To know this for sure you need measured data. Otherwise you just think it’s the truth. You could even be really really sure, but that still isn’t fact.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Your example is irrelevant since you will not have 2 of your own vehicle running side by side to compare.

To know this for sure you need measured data. Otherwise you just think it’s the truth. You could even be really really sure, but that still isn’t fact.

I guess you didn't see the posts where people have used a measuring device, which correlated with what they sensed with their ears.

So you've concluded that:
1) Nobody can hear any difference with their ears ... and,
2) Different oils never make any difference in the engine noise level.

Where's your proof, beside just saying so?

 

[JoelB]

I guess you didn't see the posts where people have used a measuring device, which correlated with what they sensed with their ears.

So you've concluded that:
1) Nobody can hear any difference with their ears ... and,
2) Different oils never make any difference in the engine noise level.

Where's your proof, beside just saying so?

I see you didnt read my response to you earlier. It’s also pretty clear you don’t work or study in a field of science or engineering. So I wish you luck on your hearing adventures. May you always find the quietest oils.

 

[ZeeOSix]

I see you didnt read my response to you earlier. It’s also pretty clear you don’t work or study in a field of science or engineering. So I wish you luck on your hearing adventures. May you always find the quietest oils.

I saw all of your responses ... and the conclusion is that you have zero proof of your claims, while there is proof (the thread I linked) that shows proof with measurements that different oil formulation can change the noise level of a running engine.

PS ... I have found the more quiet oil, for now.

 

[ollie]

I wonder if someone is going to argue the timing chain being quieter in my brothers tracker after putting Vavoline 50W Racing Moly fortified. I can tell you it was a lot quieter after switching to that oil.

Both M1 and Vavoline are great brands of oil. I believe with 100% certainty the BITOG member being able to tell a noticeable difference in noise just by switching brands. I don't believe it's a "placebo effect".

Something similar is when I switched from Shell Rotela to Motul 300 in my KTM 300 transmission, to Motul Trans expert in my Beta or from Yamalube to Motul 7100 in my Super Tenere. The difference in shifting was night and day improvement in terms of gear engagement smoothness and no missed shifts. It was not perceived but actual immediate improvement.

In certain circumstances I choose to use a more expensive better quality oil and they do not disappoint.

Any good mechanic worth his/her sand will always use the human senses to help determine an issue or improvement in a vehicles performance. I don't know any automotive techs that have DB meters in their toolbox for diagnosing.