M1 EP vs PP vs PUP 0w20

OVERKILL

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What about NOACK performance between the two? Back when Pennzoil first starting using GTL I remember this place going nuts over how incredible SOPUS's NOACK was.
Yes, the first batch of oils (Pennzoil Ultra, before the brand broke them into two camps) had excellent and extremely low Noack. That changed when the PUP and PP split happened, not sure why?

Noack is far closer between the two than cold temp performance:
GTL 4 has a Noack of 12%, PAO 12 has a Noack of 12%
GTL 5 has a Noack of 9%, PAO 5 has a Noack of 6.8%
GTL 8 has a Noack of 2% PAO 8 has a Noack of 4.1%
 
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Yes, the first batch of oils (Pennzoil Ultra, before the brand broke them into two camps) had excellent and extremely low Noack. That changed when the PUP and PP split happened
Well that's disappointing. Is GTL even any better than standard issue Group III?
 

OVERKILL

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Well that's disappointing. Is GTL even any better than standard issue Group III?
Yes. It has lower Noack and better cold temperature performance, it just isn't quite as good as PAO. On the flip-side, GTL doesn't have the seal shrink issue that PAO introduces, that needs to be countered with esters, so it's not only cheaper to procure, it's cheaper to formulate with.
 
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Mobil 1 ep is good better base oil but pennzoil also good oci 7500 or lower but cheapest price you get.
 
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Mobil 1 ep is good better base oil but pennzoil also good oci 7500 or lower but cheapest price you get.
But didn't EP just very recently reduce its PAO content? So now who knows, maybe the Pennzoil base stock is better.
 

Shel_B

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But didn't EP just very recently reduce its PAO content? So now who knows, maybe the Pennzoil base stock is better.
Oil is far more than the base stock(s). What you must consider is the full formula and how it works for the oil's intended purpose. You are oversimplifying a complex subject and product by focusing on the base stock(s), although I fully understand your (and my) interest in which stocks are used.
 
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But didn't EP just very recently reduce its PAO content? So now who knows, maybe the Pennzoil base stock is better.
Yes poa reduced but there will group 3.4,5 oil will mix better the additive package need able last up to 20000 miles . For example in Walmart pennzoil platinum $24.xx and mobil 1 ep $26.xx so 2 dollars difference you get better additive package and base oil ( yes mobil 1 ep reduce poa % msds because mobil can used any base oil with various % as long it meets then standard which can be used 20K . Pennzoil Gas to liquid which in between group 3 and group 4 (poa)
 
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Oil is far more than the base stock(s). What you must consider is the full formula and how it works for the oil's intended purpose. You are oversimplifying a complex subject and product by focusing on the base stock(s), although I fully understand your (and my) interest in which stocks are used.
I literally *only* mentioned base stock. I am not oversimplying how important the full formula is because I didn't even *mention* full formulas.
 

OVERKILL

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But didn't EP just very recently reduce its PAO content? So now who knows, maybe the Pennzoil base stock is better.
EP reduced PAO and increased GTL, which is a cheapening of the product, yes, but no, it still has more PAO than the Pennzoil product (which has none). Mobil has been doing GTL + PAO (+AN's and Esters) for a while now, EP is just the latest casualty. This type of blend of base oils can reduce production costs while keeping performance close to the same.
 
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I'd vote Mobil 1 EP as well or Valvoline EP is also an excellent choice. Pennzoil is definitely a good oil and I still use it when I get a good deal on it. But my vehicles tend to use oil on that brand only. YMMV obviously, but that's been my experience on the last 4 vehicles I've tried it on.
 

Jackson_Slugger

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EP reduced PAO and increased GTL, which is a cheapening of the product, yes, but no, it still has more PAO than the Pennzoil product (which has none). Mobil has been doing GTL + PAO (+AN's and Esters) for a while now, EP is just the latest casualty. This type of blend of base oils can reduce production costs while keeping performance close to the same.

I thought I once that saw that at least Ultra has some POE...
 

OVERKILL

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I thought I once that saw that at least Ultra has some POE...
Not that I've ever seen. It doesn't need it to counteract the seal shrink of PAO (because it doesn't have any) so the only benefit would be cleaning. Do we see higher levels of oxidation in VOA's? That's usually a tell.
 

Jackson_Slugger

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I have read old msds 1-5% POE . Maybe they put some .

Yeah, referring to that. I think newer Shell MSDS are very generic but I have to think their is at least a small amount of ester for solubility and seal conditioning...
 

FZ1

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Seems M1 EP may have better base stocks but, for a 5k max oci, I'm gonna run what my car "Likes" . Right now that's 0w-20 PUP.
 

OVERKILL

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I have read old msds 1-5% POE . Maybe they put some .
Are you sure that was POE? Esters typically aren't called out on an SDS, since they are non-hazardous (that's why we never see them). However, ZDDP often IS called out, and it's an ester.

I went back through the older SDS sheets and I see Alkaryl amine in many of them, is that perhaps what you were thinking of?
Screen Shot 2022-08-14 at 2.54.06 PM.jpg
 
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OVERKILL

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Yeah, referring to that. I think newer Shell MSDS are very generic but I have to think their is at least a small amount of ester for solubility and seal conditioning...
It's not necessary with GTL, you can just use a lower group base to provide the carrier and solubility function. That of course doesn't mean they don't, but it wouldn't be called out on an SDS because, as I noted, ester base oils are non-hazardous, same with AN's, which is why we don't see either on the Mobil SDS's.

As I noted earlier, virgin oxidation would be a tell.
 

Jackson_Slugger

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Are you sure that was POE? Esters typically aren't called out on an SDS, since they are non-hazardous (that's why we never see them). However, ZDDP often IS called out, and it's an ester.

I went back through the older SDS sheets and I see Alkaryl amine in many of them, is that perhaps what you were thinking of?
View attachment 112497

Partially yes, but this one from 2020 (the 0W-40 that I believe you use) lists a small amount of Alkylated phenol ester:

 

OVERKILL

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Partially yes, but this one from 2020 (the 0W-40 that I believe you use) lists a small amount of Alkylated phenol ester:

Nope, I've only ever used the SRT oil briefly and that was on my previous 2016 Grand Cherokee SRT, this one has only had Ravenol and HPL :)

An Akylated phenol ester isn't POE, which is a polyol ester.

This product appears to be an antioxidant, based on what I found searching by the CAS #.


Edit:
If you look at these two VOA's:
M1 Euro 0W-40 VOA - virgin oxidation, 25
PP Euro 0W-40 VOA - virgin oxidation, 8

You can see that the virgin oxidation points to the M1 having a nice shot of ester in it (probably POE) while the PP doesn't.
 
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